Signature Vinny Ginda Quote: “Your goal in any negotiation is not to win — it’s to solve the problem and save lives.”
Arvinder “Vinny” Ginda is a highly respected FBI Special Agent and Hostage Negotiator known for his expertise in emotional intelligence, crisis communication, and reading human behavior under extreme pressure. His work places him in situations most people spend their entire lives avoiding — moments of fear, conflict, and life‑or‑death decision‑making — where clarity, empathy, and communication can save lives.
Born in Nakodar, Punjab, Vinny’s journey reflects resilience, discipline, and an unwavering commitment to service. After immigrating to the United States, he built a distinguished career in federal law enforcement, earning recognition for his ability to connect with people in their most vulnerable moments. His negotiation philosophy centers on understanding human emotion, building trust, and solving problems rather than “winning.”
Vinny has become a powerful voice on topics such as mindset, resilience, emotional intelligence, and human behavior, sharing insights that help people navigate difficult conversations, strengthen relationships, and lead with compassion. His story continues to inspire communities across Punjab, California, and beyond — a reminder that roots may define us, but courage shapes our destiny.
Vinny’s journey from a small town in Punjab to serving at the highest levels of federal law enforcement stands as a testament to hard work, courage, and service. His story embodies Maan Punjab da — pride in heritage, excellence in action, and compassion in leadership.
Nakodar, Punjab to FBI
ਅਰਵਿੰਦਰ “ਵਿੰਨੀ” ਗਿੰਦਾ ਇੱਕ ਮਾਣਯੋਗ FBI Special Agent ਅਤੇ Hostage Negotiator ਹਨ, ਜੋ ਸੰਕਟ ਦੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਮਨੁੱਖੀ ਭਾਵਨਾਵਾਂ, ਸੰਚਾਰ ਅਤੇ ਮਨੋਵਿਗਿਆਨ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਪਣੀ ਬੇਮਿਸਾਲ ਕਾਬਲੀਅਤ ਲਈ ਜਾਣੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਉਹ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਕਮਰਿਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੰਮ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਜਿੱਥੇ ਜ਼ਿਆਦਾਤਰ ਲੋਕ ਆਪਣੀ ਪੂਰੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਜਾਣ ਤੋਂ ਕਤਰਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ — ਡਰ, ਟਕਰਾਅ ਅਤੇ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ‑ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਫੈਸਲੇ ਵਾਲੇ ਪਲ।
ਵਿੰਨੀ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਨਕੋਦਰ, ਪੰਜਾਬ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੋਇਆ। ਪੰਜਾਬ ਦੀ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਤੋਂ ਅਮਰੀਕਾ ਤੱਕ ਦਾ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਸਫ਼ਰ ਹੌਸਲੇ, ਮਿਹਨਤ ਅਤੇ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੀ ਰੂਹ ਨਾਲ ਭਰਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਅਮਰੀਕਾ ਆ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਫੈਡਰਲ ਲਾਅ ਇਨਫੋਰਸਮੈਂਟ ਵਿੱਚ ਇੱਕ ਸ਼ਾਨਦਾਰ ਕਰੀਅਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਅਤੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਮੁਸ਼ਕਲ ਪਲਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਭਰੋਸਾ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਕਾਬਲੀਅਤ ਨਾਲ ਖ਼ਾਸ ਪਛਾਣ ਬਣਾਈ।
ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ Negotiation ਫ਼ਿਲਾਸਫ਼ੀ ਸਧਾਰਨ ਹੈ — ਜਿੱਤਣਾ ਮਕਸਦ ਨਹੀਂ, ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀਆਂ ਬਚਾਉਣਾ ਮਕਸਦ ਹੈ। ਸਮਝ, ਭਰੋਸਾ ਅਤੇ ਸਹਾਨਭੂਤੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਹਰ ਫੈਸਲੇ ਦਾ ਕੇਂਦਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਵਿੰਨੀ ਅੱਜ Emotional Intelligence, Mindset, Resilience ਅਤੇ Human Behavior ਵਰਗੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਿਆਂ ’ਤੇ ਇੱਕ ਮਜ਼ਬੂਤ ਆਵਾਜ਼ ਬਣ ਚੁੱਕੇ ਹਨ। ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਿੱਖਿਆਵਾਂ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮੁਸ਼ਕਲ ਗੱਲਬਾਤਾਂ, ਰਿਸ਼ਤਿਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਨੇਤ੍ਰਿਤਵ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਪਸ਼ਟਤਾ ਅਤੇ ਦਇਆ ਨਾਲ ਅੱਗੇ ਵਧਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਮਦਦ ਕਰਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ।
ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਪੰਜਾਬ, ਕੈਲੀਫ਼ੋਰਨੀਆ ਅਤੇ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਭਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਮਿਊਨਿਟੀਆਂ ਲਈ ਪ੍ਰੇਰਣਾ ਹੈ — ਇਹ ਯਾਦ ਦਿਵਾਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜੜਾਂ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਬਣਾਉਂਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਹੌਸਲਾ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਉੱਚਾ ਲੈ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।
Nakodar, Punjab to FBI
Chapter 1: The second room in every crisis
0:00
0 secondsThere are rooms most people spend their whole lives avoiding. The conversation you keep putting off. The moment you finally admit you’re not okay. The worst
0:08
8 secondsday of someone’s life when what you say next [music] can change the entire course of your future. Yeah, Jake, there’s been a lot of rooms in my life that I’ve existed in. I felt invincible.
0:18
18 seconds[music]
0:18
18 secondsI felt encouraged. I felt I could do anything. But at the same time, I walked back into [music] those rooms and been around hundreds of people and felt
0:27
27 secondsabsolutely invisible, not seen, not heard. I [music] accepted my mortality.
0:32
32 secondsThat in and of itself allowed me to not be [music] afraid anymore. The burnout, the grief, walking away from the career that told him who he was [music] and
0:41
41 secondshaving to figure out who he was without it. Today’s guest turns pain into purpose and teaches people the courage to walk into the hardest rooms of their lives. Arander Ginda.
0:55
55 secondsWhat do you call an alligator in a vest? What do you call an alligator in a vest?
Chapter 2: Dad jokes
1:03
1 minute, 3 secondsUm, an investigator. Yeah.
1:08
1 minute, 8 seconds[laughter]
1:11
1 minute, 11 secondsAll right.
1:12
1 minute, 12 secondsWow. I think that’s a first time ever on the podcast [laughter] getting a dad joke right off the bat.
1:18
1 minute, 18 secondsUh, well done, sir.
1:20
1 minute, 20 secondsWell, can I share one with you as well, then? How allow it?
1:23
1 minute, 23 secondsAll right. This is uh one I got from uh a little friend of mine at church, young lady named Ava, and uh told this joke
1:31
1 minute, 31 secondsbeautifully, so I’m not going to probably do it justice, but I’ll do my part. Why are oceans so angry?
1:38
1 minute, 38 secondsYou would be too if you had crabs on your bottom. [laughter] So, sorry. That’s about as good. No, it’s
1:46
1 minute, 46 secondsgood. I borrowed that. So, I just I’m glad you’re not speaking from experience. [laughter] Thank you. Thank you.
1:56
1 minute, 56 secondsAfter 21 years in the FBI, what’s the one thing you learned that you wish you knew your whole life? Oh, man.
Chapter 3: The one lesson from 21 years in the FBI
2:04
2 minutes, 4 secondsYou know, Jake, it’s incredible that uh there’s a lot of lessons I’ve learned along the way. There’s a lot of things that have happened in my life that I
2:11
2 minutes, 11 secondslook back and think, “Wow, God has saw a fit that I kind of survived those moments the way that I did.” But I would
2:19
2 minutes, 19 secondssay one of the biggest impacts was that uh I accepted my mortality.
2:25
2 minutes, 25 secondsAnd I [clears throat] would say that in and of itself allowed me to not be afraid anymore of what my life holds
2:33
2 minutes, 33 secondsafter my pass from here. So once I accepted that, it was just not a matter of of surviving anymore, trying to just
2:41
2 minutes, 41 secondssurvive to live another day. It was just living. So not questioning my mortality or immortality or where I’m going to be
2:48
2 minutes, 48 secondsonce I pass from here. That was probably one of the biggest lessons that I think I accepted, learned, and kind of carried carried with me.
2:55
2 minutes, 55 secondsOkay. You learned that in the FBI?
2:57
2 minutes, 57 secondsI I learned that during my uh during my first tour in Iraq. Okay.
3:02
3 minutes, 2 secondsYeah. and I went over there as as an FBI uh agent or as a hostage negotiator.
3:07
3 minutes, 7 secondsOkay. During my first tour was there a certain moment or talk more about that if you don’t mind.
3:12
3 minutes, 12 secondsYeah. Um in fact I can tell you the exact date and time. Uh February of uh
3:18
3 minutes, 18 seconds2008. Uh we were in Baghdad and I had only been there for about five six weeks
Chapter 4: Accepting mortality in Baghdad
3:25
3 minutes, 25 secondsor so and things were difficult and things were challenging at the same time on many levels and there was a lot of individuals who ended up going home because of stress or they were just physically sick.
3:35
3 minutes, 35 secondsAnd I just prayed I said you know God I I can’t live my life this way. I can’t constantly live in stress. I can’t constantly live in duress and and afraid of what might happen to me because there
3:44
3 minutes, 44 secondswas constantly incomings or or threats of of uh mortars and bombs being shot into the the uh green zone or anywhere I
3:52
3 minutes, 52 secondswas traveling. So, anytime that happened, you the alarms would come in and you’d go into a bunker and you’d hide out. And when the alarms were off, then you’d come out and go back to work.
4:01
4 minutes, 1 secondI just uh didn’t want to keep running.
4:04
4 minutes, 4 secondsAnd I said, “God, I I can’t keep doing this. I need to do a job here. allow me to to do this job in a way that I can be
4:11
4 minutes, 11 secondssuccessful or or solve the case that that I’m supposed to solve. And once I let that go, it was in that moment um
4:18
4 minutes, 18 secondsthat I realized, okay, God’s going to going to kind of help me through this.
4:22
4 minutes, 22 secondsAnd it was also somebody had left this uh Psalms 91. It was a little card on on on my door. And uh I don’t know who did
4:30
4 minutes, 30 secondsit or where uh and how it got there, but Psalms 91 is essentially about God providing protection for us in our time
4:38
4 minutes, 38 secondsof need. And uh so I carried that with me and said, “Okay, this is what it what it need to be and and just accept that.”
4:44
4 minutes, 44 secondsSo from there on haven’t been afraid at all.
4:48
4 minutes, 48 secondsNice. Wow. And what’s that like living like that? Not feeling afraid. There’s a sense of freedom in it.
4:53
4 minutes, 53 secondsthere’s a sense of of um understanding realization that uh we could go at any
5:01
5 minutes, 1 secondtime but at the same time when my time is up it’s going to be up and I don’t know when that’s going to be God knows that right so
5:09
5 minutes, 9 secondsfor me there is there is definitely some freedom in that and I I’m able to be more present with myself with other people
5:16
5 minutes, 16 secondsand just be present with them in those moments that uh I feel that they need me me to be in not the way that I need to
5:23
5 minutes, 23 secondsbe. So rather than constantly running and fearing, I’m whenever it’s my time, I’m ready to go.
5:30
5 minutes, 30 secondsSo is a fear of death that you release?
5:35
5 minutes, 35 secondsBasically, I would say, yeah, the fear of death is no longer something that uh that really
5:43
5 minutes, 43 secondsuh fits into my daily processing or thought or conversation or or life anymore. Um so it was that that process
5:50
5 minutes, 50 secondsthat uh I just allowed to move on from and um you know in that was also understanding that death is a part of
5:59
5 minutes, 59 secondslife as well. Death is something that happens to all of us and that [clears throat] was also another important lesson I learned along the way that uh that life is is
6:09
6 minutes, 9 secondssomething that we should be appreciative and thankful for. And it was in about December of 2021 that I realized my
6:18
6 minutes, 18 secondsidentity, my certain aspects of my profession, my job, they were they were passing on. So in other words, those
6:25
6 minutes, 25 secondsidentities were passing on. So someday Ive I’ve I’ve shared this with with some close friends. I would love to get a tattoo in uh in Arabic right here. And
6:35
6 minutes, 35 secondsit’s uh going to be death is not to be feared. Rather it is to be admired. Because every day that we
6:42
6 minutes, 42 secondslive, we also die a little. And every identity that we have, once it passes from us, there’s also a new identity that forms. Every relationship that
6:51
6 minutes, 51 secondsends, there’s also a beginning of a new relationship. And so, if we learn to grieve those aspects of our life, we’re no longer having to live in fear
7:00
7 minutesof what we may become. So I I think for me personally it was just an aspect of of allowing death and accepting death as
7:09
7 minutes, 9 secondsjust a part of everything that happens daily to us.
7:13
7 minutes, 13 secondsMhm. Is there anything you’re fearful of becoming?
Chapter 5: The fear of becoming complacent
7:19
7 minutes, 19 secondsI complacent probably.
7:22
7 minutes, 22 secondsOkay. Why does that bother you? Um because I feel in complacency we lose a version of ourselves where we’re not
7:30
7 minutes, 30 secondsstriving to either be better versions of ourselves or to be present for other people. So I don’t ever want to just
7:38
7 minutes, 38 secondsaccept that uh you know I’m going to see my family members, my loved ones again tomorrow. Um I’ve got some dear friends
7:46
7 minutes, 46 secondsthat and close very close family members that are that are not well and they’re ill. So, I’m sorry to hear that.
7:54
7 minutes, 54 secondsIt’s interesting that now the phone rings from them. I don’t let it go to voicemail. I pick it up every chance I get.
8:00
8 minutesAnd uh I don’t want to miss that opportunity anymore. So, complacency is isn’t something that uh I’m not afraid of it. It’s just that something I don’t
8:09
8 minutes, 9 secondswant to allow it to to kind of creep into my life.
8:12
8 minutes, 12 secondsYeah. That the phone call one’s a big one.
8:15
8 minutes, 15 secondsYeah. Um, I don’t know if you’ve had this happen, but I mean when my dad died, it was a phone call and that was it.
Chapter 6: The phone call that changes everything
8:24
8 minutes, 24 secondsYou know, some grandma called and I thought, “Oh, what’s for dinner?” You know, you know, and uh that’s not why she called. And um uh
8:33
8 minutes, 33 secondsagain, I don’t know if you’ve experienced that, but I think it’s a blessing knowing now that you’re picking up the call and even if
8:41
8 minutes, 41 secondssometimes you’re like, I don’t want to talk to this person, it’s like, all right, still still answer, you know.
8:47
8 minutes, 47 secondsWell, don’t get me wrong, there’s still some of those people [laughter] that exist in your life that that you know that happens to. But, uh I will say most
8:54
8 minutes, 54 secondsrecently, yes, um with that specifically, um I I don’t let those moments go. And I’m sure when you
9:02
9 minutes, 2 secondsreceived that phone call, you had one perception or one reality that you were living and in that one moment with that one phone call from your grandma, it
9:10
9 minutes, 10 secondscompletely changed the trajectory of your life, trajectory of your thinking, your processing, your your physical being, right? Yeah.
9:17
9 minutes, 17 secondsAnd so it it puts you on a different path and you remember the moment. you remember everything about it and that gets imprinted into who you are
9:25
9 minutes, 25 secondsand becomes a part of your DNA becomes a part of the fabric of your life and so that’s where I think we kind of look and
9:34
9 minutes, 34 secondsthink those moments have happened along in our life and whether they’re traumatic or whether they’re joyous um is just how we allow them to continue to coexist in our life.
9:45
9 minutes, 45 secondsYeah. And I think understanding too where I had someone who’s going to be like potential guest and maybe she’ll be on but
9:52
9 minutes, 52 secondsshe wasn’t even open or she’s open to having a conversation with me but but
10:01
10 minutes, 1 secondwanted to wait because her father had passed and didn’t feel like they wanted to talk at the moment. And I’m like,
10:08
10 minutes, 8 secondsjust offering the the perspective that something you might be saying and go through during a conversation we might have could really help someone else
10:17
10 minutes, 17 secondswho’s going through the similar situation if you came on the podcast.
10:20
10 minutes, 20 secondsagain to to your own opinion, but letting her know too like at the moment and when these really bad things happen to us and think like oh like I’m the
10:28
10 minutes, 28 secondsonly one [laughter] you know when uh unfortunately lots of us lose our parents or or close loved ones or experience very hard moments in life.
10:39
10 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. Um I I can certainly see what you mean and if if I can just uh add a little nope fine-tune that perspective in just slightly if I could.
10:48
10 minutes, 48 secondsGo ahead. I want to hear your perspective that uh sometimes it’s not about uh you know not showing up or or doing the interview or showing up and and not being present for a particular event.
10:59
10 minutes, 59 secondsMhm. [clears throat] Sometimes it’s about not letting people see your vulnerability.
11:03
11 minutes, 3 secondsAnd often times people want to protect themselves, protect their vulnerability because other individuals may take that vulnerability and weaponize it. Yeah.
11:11
11 minutes, 11 secondsAnd so you never know how you’re going to be perceived. And here, you know, it’s fascinating that, you know, we we’ve started this conversation and uh,
11:20
11 minutes, 20 secondsyou know, in a in a way maybe both of us thought that the conversation would go one way and and now the conversation’s going in a way where you’ve had an
11:28
11 minutes, 28 secondsexperience where you received that phone call and for me it was about a month month and a half ago where I found out my dad was really ill. Oh. And so he’s
11:37
11 minutes, 37 secondsyou know at home not doing well and uh you know he’s incredibly incredibly intelligent powerful man and
Chapter 7: His father’s story: from India to the fields
11:45
11 minutes, 45 secondsand I admire in fact my first book I dedicated to him because he was a teacher in India and he’s got an incredible story. What’s your dad’s name? Darham Paul Ginda.
11:54
11 minutes, 54 secondsOkay cool.
11:54
11 minutes, 54 secondsAnd uh your face lights up when you say his name.
11:57
11 minutes, 57 secondsHe’s uh he’s he’s one of those individuals in my life that uh that has always been very very an important part of my life. Uh I mean he gave up a lot
12:06
12 minutes, 6 secondsof things in India when we immigrated to the states.
12:08
12 minutes, 8 secondsUh he brought me and my siblings to the US in in a way that uh we normally wouldn’t have been able to come here.
12:17
12 minutes, 17 secondsBut uh uh he fought for all eight of us. So me and my my five other siblings.
12:23
12 minutes, 23 secondsYes. My parent my mom and dad and my six siblings. Yes. Dang.
12:26
12 minutes, 26 secondsI’ll I’ll share one further for you. The house or what we lived in India was about a 12t x 12t room. Dirt floors, no
12:35
12 minutes, 35 secondselectricity, no running water, no indoor plumbing of any sort. Wow.
12:40
12 minutes, 40 secondsThat’s where I lived for the first eight years of my life and [clears throat] uh using indoor plumbing or anything like that. I was eight until I finally found that. And my
12:48
12 minutes, 48 secondsdad being a teacher in India for 19 years, he couldn’t go back to school here. So he was working in the fields. He was a
12:55
12 minutes, 55 secondsmigrant worker. And so he did that up until about 199596 where he finally became a custodian at a at a store in in Northern
13:04
13 minutes, 4 secondsCalifornia at Winkco Foods and and that’s where he retired out from. And so the job for him the the the qualifier
13:11
13 minutes, 11 secondsbeing he was proud that he was working where there was air conditioning indoors. He was not working in the fields. And this man worked his entire life as hard as he did. And my mom and
13:20
13 minutes, 20 secondsdad, they’re they’re both living they’re both in their uh uh early 80s, 83 each.
13:25
13 minutes, 25 secondsAnd uh just on the 25th they celebrated their 69th anniversary. Wow.
13:31
13 minutes, 31 secondsSo they got uh arranged when they were around 13 years old. So and to see my dad get sick going from perfectly
13:41
13 minutes, 41 secondshealthy back in back in uh late April, first part of May to just not being able to walk anymore. M
13:49
13 minutes, 49 secondsum anytime I traveled outside the US, anytime I was going to be going on a particular, let’s just say uh an assignment with the
13:58
13 minutes, 58 secondsbureau, um I had three individuals that I would call.
14:02
14 minutes, 2 secondsMy dad was always my first one, first call. I would call my dad and for the last as long as I can remember, my dad always gave me the same advice. I said, “Dad, I’m getting ready to head out.
Chapter 8: Three calls before every deployment
14:12
14 minutes, 12 secondsWhere you going?” “Sorry, Dad. I can’t tell you.” And he’d say, “Uh, when are you coming back?” “Dad, I really don’t know.” Okay. But just remember, you’re
14:19
14 minutes, 19 secondsnever alone. No matter where you go, what you’re doing, I’m always with you.
14:24
14 minutes, 24 secondsIf there’s a moment that you become afraid or uncertain, just close your eyes, think of me, and I’m right there by your side. And he goes, “I’ll be I’m
14:33
14 minutes, 33 secondsproud of you, son.” And that’s all he’d say. And I’d hang up with him. And then I’d call my other friend Dennis, who was another just a a father figure, another
14:42
14 minutes, 42 secondselderly individual. And he passed away in 2018.
14:46
14 minutes, 46 secondsSorry to hear that. And he always used to say, my second call would go to him and he would always say, “Hey, keep your powder dry. Keep your powder dry.” Keep
14:54
14 minutes, 54 secondsyour powder dry. Uh it’s a it’s an older term where you know when in the you know during the Civil War when people would use musketss or or in uh fight in
15:03
15 minutes, 3 secondsfighting um if you your powder got any wet your gun wouldn’t go off. Oh.
15:08
15 minutes, 8 secondsSo his idea to always to me was always be prepared.
15:11
15 minutes, 11 secondsOkay. And then my third call was uh was to another dear friend of mine and and uh um Cliff Snelling. He was another strong father figure, a man I admired.
15:20
15 minutes, 20 secondsAnd uh I’d say, “All right, Cliff, I’m heading out.” The same questions. Where are you headed? When you coming back?
15:26
15 minutes, 26 secondsAnd then he would pray with me. And he was one of the few who understood my faith and uh and would ask for for prayer over me.
15:34
15 minutes, 34 secondsUnfortunately, two of those men have passed on and my dad’s the last one. And so for me, it’s uh it is it’s it’s it’s a call that you won’t never want to
15:43
15 minutes, 43 secondsreceive. And I don’t know if I’ll ever be prepared for it, but it is something that uh I’ve come to accept that it is a part of life and it is something that
15:52
15 minutes, 52 secondsI’ve grieved and um continue to to work through. But right now, he’s at home
15:58
15 minutes, 58 secondswith my mom and they’re living daytoday and I look forward to seeing him as soon as I get back.
16:06
16 minutes, 6 secondsWell, I I appreciate you sharing all that and and if one thing that you can get from today that I hope that sticks with you
16:14
16 minutes, 14 secondsis in that moment when that phone call comes,
16:20
16 minutes, 20 secondsyou can have the same feeling I had when his death is announced that, you know,
16:27
16 minutes, 27 secondsat least the last time I talked to him, I told him I loved him. And just know that just like when he does pass,
16:37
16 minutes, 37 secondshe will always be with you like he said and so will Jesus. So you will have two fathers then will always be with you.
16:48
16 minutes, 48 secondsAnd hope you just find peace in that in that moment.
16:54
16 minutes, 54 secondsThank you, Jake. I [clears throat] appreciate you you sharing those kind words. Um, you know, it’s interesting in
17:02
17 minutes, 2 secondsIndian culture, we don’t speak of death very often because death is a permanent thing in the culture because you never know what you’re going to be in the next lifetime.
17:12
17 minutes, 12 secondsIn the Western cultures, in in Christianity and the like, death is perceived as a graduation, as a celebration, as a as a as a way for us to see each other again.
17:23
17 minutes, 23 secondsAnd uh yeah, it’s not something that you’re right. If when any of that
17:31
17 minutes, 31 secondshappens, if any one person could ever be ready or be prepared and it’d be just as shocking. And you know, who knows? My
17:38
17 minutes, 38 secondskids might receive a call about me way sooner than even my own parents, right?
17:44
17 minutes, 44 secondsGod knows when that moment’s going to be for all of us.
17:46
17 minutes, 46 secondsYou may never receive that call because you may pass before him.
17:48
17 minutes, 48 secondsThat’s exactly it. So I You’re right. And and it’s a moment where I continue to at least be present in that way when I do go see him, when I
17:57
17 minutes, 57 secondsdo go see my mom. be thankful that I have him and and we exchange stories and as incredible as is he talks about you
18:04
18 minutes, 4 secondsknow being born in Pakistan and before the separation happened and being you know carried back into India and so he’s just got this incredible story that uh
18:13
18 minutes, 13 secondsI I think I I look forward to sharing someday in one of my well my my future book my fourth one that I’m writing uh
18:20
18 minutes, 20 secondsbut uh that’ll be more about my life my family’s life but uh that man is is and has always been an incredible individual and an influence in my my life.
18:28
18 minutes, 28 secondsYeah. Well, it’s it’s amazing like um and like you said, the just the fact that they’ve been married for they’re
18:35
18 minutes, 35 secondscelebrating their their 69th uh wedding anniversary.
18:38
18 minutes, 38 secondsYeah. That’s when they arranged when they were 13. Then my dad turned about 19 and then about 61, he went back and uh once he got a job and was a teacher
18:46
18 minutes, 46 secondsthat had a second ceremony and that’s when my dad was able to see his bride cuz he never knew what she looked like. Wow.
18:53
18 minutes, 53 secondsSo, talk about arranged marriages back then, right? What does the FBI teach you about people that the rest of us never get to talk?
19:01
19 minutes, 1 secondYou know, the FBI was experienced in the job was was absolutely incredible. I was very fortunate and blessed to have been
19:10
19 minutes, 10 secondspart of an organization that has existed for well over 100 years. And the the recognition and and the job and the
19:18
19 minutes, 18 secondsexperience and the and the training that you received is such that you can’t compare it to anything else. and um you
19:26
19 minutes, 26 secondsknow having been a cop uh law enforcement local law enforcement for 10 years before joining the FBI uh the the training at Quanico was was incredible
19:35
19 minutes, 35 secondsand when I joined back in 2004 obviously it’s you know been well over 21 years and and when I retired it was 21 years.
19:43
19 minutes, 43 secondsOne of the things that taught me was that uh investigations are are not quick by any stretch of the imagination. uh they
19:50
19 minutes, 50 secondscould take months, years, and years. And there’s been investigations that have gone on for decades.
19:55
19 minutes, 55 secondsSo sometimes there’s no closure in those cases in the closure in those investigations.
20:00
20 minutesSo what uh what it taught me early on was that I had to obtain a sense of purpose, a sense of direction, a sense of accomplishment in other aspects of my life.
Chapter 9: What the FBI teaches you about people
20:09
20 minutes, 9 secondsOkay.
20:10
20 minutes, 10 secondsSo I may not get that in a case that I’ve been working for for quite some time.
20:15
20 minutes, 15 secondsSo I I needed other outlets, another other way. So sometimes that comes in ancillary duties. I became a hostage negotiator
20:23
20 minutes, 23 secondsthat allowed me to to take on other taskings and receive additional training. So the FBI has taught me a lot
20:30
20 minutes, 30 secondsof valuable lessons. But part of that was also understanding people, understanding human behavior and uh also understanding myself in certain ways.
20:42
20 minutes, 42 secondsWhat was it like being a hostage negotiator?
20:46
20 minutes, 46 secondsI as I said I I felt very fortunate and blessed because I’ve had some very unique experiences over my life. I’ve
20:54
20 minutes, 54 secondsgot a chance to travel to various countries. I’ve got a chance to work cases out of Southeast Asia, out of Africa, Middle East, um Mexico, all around the world.
21:05
21 minutes, 5 secondsSo I I was very fortunate on that level and I’ve got a chance to work with some very experienced individuals in the bureau.
21:11
21 minutes, 11 secondsUm it definitely had its challenges. Um, I remember obviously every one of those cases. I can tell you incredible,
21:18
21 minutes, 18 secondsfascinating stories about the people that I met along the way and the incredible agents that work those cases.
21:24
21 minutes, 24 secondsUm, but the ones that uh kind of stick with me the most was was also those individuals that um we were not able to
21:33
21 minutes, 33 secondsto bring home the way that they had left their families. And that those kind of moments stick with you the most. So, um
21:41
21 minutes, 41 secondsit was an incredible experience on all aspects for better for worse, but uh that was that was uh the life that I was able to to kind of experience.
Chapter 10: Life as a hostage negotiator
21:50
21 minutes, 50 secondsYeah. Yeah. I bet that was I mean there’s so much pressure, you know? I think like I mean even on podcast
21:59
21 minutes, 59 secondsthere’s a there’s a little bit of pressure, right? But like nothing compared to imagine negotiating the safety of someone’s life.
22:09
22 minutes, 9 secondsAbsolutely. You you have this aspect to consider that uh when you’re in the room with the family member, you know, as as I’ve often as we started out with there,
22:18
22 minutes, 18 secondsthere’s a visible room and then the invisible room. The visible room that you see this family feeling a sense of loss, a sense of grief and uncertainty about their loved one.
22:26
22 minutes, 26 secondsAnd then as a as a negotiator or as even as as an investigator, you have to be able to address that. But you also have to understand all of the new nuances of
22:35
22 minutes, 35 secondsthings that are not being shared with you. the the invisible room, the challenges that the family is facing when you’re long gone. So, when they put
22:43
22 minutes, 43 secondsthat kind of trust in you to ensure that you’re going to help them through, ultimately, we always shared with them that the the responsibility and the
22:52
22 minutes, 52 secondsdecision-m ultimately falls on the family. All we are is advisers. And, you know, being an FBI negotiator, you you can’t promise things to the family. You
23:00
23 minutescan’t promise things to the kidnappers or in a hostage barricade situation. all you can do is is at least try to gain that mutual respect and understanding.
23:09
23 minutes, 9 secondsSo, it’s not always trying to take control and alter and change people’s lives. Sometimes it’s about being present and understanding certain
23:17
23 minutes, 17 secondsperspectives. And that goes a lot further than uh than trying to change certain things.
23:23
23 minutes, 23 secondsYeah, I can imagine because I mean you can’t control someone per se or or an outcome, right? you know, and
23:32
23 minutes, 32 secondsI’m guessing respect is like you said, is a big thing, you know, and and trying to put yourself
23:39
23 minutes, 39 secondsunderstandably hard to do so in the shoes of the kidnapper and say like, okay, well, like what are they thinking?
23:48
23 minutes, 48 secondsLike why do they why did they do this? You know, what was that like?
23:54
23 minutes, 54 secondsYou know, I look at it this way that everybody has certain needs, wants, and desires. Whether you’re a kidnapper or you’re trying to negotiate some type of
24:02
24 minutes, 2 secondsa business deal or you’re trying to purchase something, right? There are certain aspects of of these needs, wants and desires that have to be fulfilled. Yeah.
24:10
24 minutes, 10 secondsSo establishing that and understanding what are those needs, wants, desires and what are those underlying issues that the kidnappers are trying to accomplish.
24:18
24 minutes, 18 secondsNow yes, [clears throat] sometimes it is purely monetary. It’s business to them.
24:22
24 minutes, 22 secondsBut even in business sense, there is al always almost an ethical rule. Can they can they followed? And it was interesting that uh that one
24:31
24 minutes, 31 secondsparticular um case and and I won’t go into a lot of details but I’ll just share a line with you and again I don’t share these in in any way to
24:39
24 minutes, 39 secondssensationalize them. I I share it in a way that you want to understand it.
24:43
24 minutes, 43 secondsRight. So we we were talking to the to the kidnappers early on in in in the case and this is one of those that last this one lasted almost 42 days.
24:52
24 minutes, 52 secondsOkay. Wow. So, we were in the early stages and the kidnappers had made an astronomical kind of u demand, a ransom demand.
25:00
25 minutesAnd my question to them was, listen, we’re going to get there. We’ll get to the final number, but how do we know that you’re going to
25:08
25 minutes, 8 secondsfollow through and you’re not going to just take the money? Do you know what his statement was?
25:13
25 minutes, 13 secondsIt was incredible. And it it truly epitomized this idea of of what these negotiations actually take. He said,
25:21
25 minutes, 21 seconds’You know, kidnapping is my business and I’m a businessman. If I get paid and I don’t
Chapter 11: Kidnapping is my business
25:29
25 minutes, 29 secondsreturn your loved one, nobody’s going to believe me. Nobody’s going to pay me in the future. So, I want to be out of a out of a job essentially. So, yeah, I
25:38
25 minutes, 38 secondsyou pay me, you’ll get your loved one back. You don’t pay me, then, you know, we’ll see what happens. So even that
25:45
25 minutes, 45 secondslittle bit, it was incredible to think that, okay, we have a mutual understanding. We don’t know what that final number is going to be. We don’t
25:53
25 minutes, 53 secondsknow how we’re going to get there. At some point, we may get there, but this particular kidnapper who’s sitting in a foreign country
26:01
26 minutes, 1 secondand is communicating with us through through a process and a in a mechanism that, you know, is is very difficult to capture and where they might be.
26:10
26 minutes, 10 secondsSo you work with what you have. Yeah. Yeah.
26:13
26 minutes, 13 secondsAnd that mentality is what we worked with.
26:15
26 minutes, 15 secondsYeah. Gosh, that would have been challenging like like dealing business with like a ghost. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Exactly.
26:22
26 minutes, 22 secondsAnd they’re like, “Don’t worry, I’ll give you all the whatever the currency a ghost pays in.” Yeah.
26:28
26 minutes, 28 secondsYeah. So the currency oftent times for them it’s monetary, but the currency that we’re negotiating is is human life.
26:35
26 minutes, 35 secondsSo bringing that uh that individual back and and the life is very valuable to every family member, every loved one.
26:41
26 minutes, 41 secondsYeah. And so there there were times where unfortunately it didn’t work out and uh things changed. Miscommunications happened between different people.
26:50
26 minutes, 50 secondsSo you deal with what you have.
26:53
26 minutes, 53 secondsYeah, that sounds extremely difficult.
26:57
26 minutes, 57 seconds[laughter]
26:58
26 minutes, 58 seconds[snorts]
26:58
26 minutes, 58 secondsIt had its challenges. It certainly didn’t.
27:00
27 minutesYeah, understandably. So your career I was going to say your career defined who you were for 21
27:09
27 minutes, 9 secondsyears. What happened after that?
27:15
27 minutes, 15 secondsIt was the 21 years in the FBI and the nine 10 years as a law enforcement officer. So almost 30 31 years. I went
27:22
27 minutes, 22 secondsthrough the police academy when I was 20 years 20 years old. And I got to say after that the transition for me
27:30
27 minutes, 30 secondspersonally was a little bit easier because I started grieving my identity as an FBI agent as I said 2021 2022
27:39
27 minutes, 39 secondsand I knew that at some point I would be leaving and uh when I when I finally retired in in September of of 2025
27:49
27 minutes, 49 secondsjust you know not too long ago um I found myself thinking what do I do now?
27:55
27 minutes, 55 secondsI’ve had a certain identity. I’ve had a certain way of of kind of getting up and and go either going to the office, going to meetings. And so I found myself
28:04
28 minutes, 4 secondswaking up thinking, what do I do now? So I I physically had to remind myself that I still had a had a purpose. I still had a life.
28:12
28 minutes, 12 secondsAnd so I started teaching at Jessup University, which is a small college in Northern California. Okay, cool. I’m I’m teaching a couple classes there.
Chapter 12: When your career defined you for 31 years
28:20
28 minutes, 20 secondsBut I al also went back to school. I’m working on my master’s degree right now and hoping to get my my continue on to get my PhD. Oh, cool.
28:27
28 minutes, 27 secondsAnd uh then I I’ve got my company, Emotional Intelligence LLC, where um I teach resilience and and uh and
28:36
28 minutes, 36 secondsemotional intelligence to the private sector as well as law enforcement agencies. So I I found that even though
28:44
28 minutes, 44 secondsmy identity as an agent may not be there that uh I still had a purpose and I I
28:50
28 minutes, 50 secondsstill had a job and accepting that was um I can’t say it was as difficult as I originally anticipated.
29:00
29 minutesUm but for me personally uh I felt that I could continue on. So um that that
29:07
29 minutes, 7 secondsidentity of of not being an agent anymore was difficult. right? Not getting the calls from the office because those co calls stopped and not
29:15
29 minutes, 15 secondshaving, you know, people calling you and say, “We got this active situation going on.” Those stopped coming in and you watch all these stories
29:23
29 minutes, 23 secondshappening on national TV. You’re like, “Yeah, I could have been a part of that.
29:26
29 minutes, 26 secondsI could have been a part of that.” And those calls don’t come in anymore.
29:29
29 minutes, 29 seconds[clears throat]
29:30
29 minutes, 30 secondsBut for me, it was okay because you you passed the baton on and you you’ve moved on and other people will continue to do the job. So accepting that
29:39
29 minutes, 39 secondsthe FBI wasn’t just about me. It was far greater. It’s not and the job. Exactly. Right. Cuz no one thing is ever about us.
29:48
29 minutes, 48 secondsSo the job will continue and the job and the people will continue and it just goes on. Somebody picks up those pieces and moves on and that’s okay.
29:55
29 minutes, 55 secondsAnd so for me it was it was accepting that it was was never about me to begin with. It was just I was holding a position temporarily in my
30:03
30 minutes, 3 secondslife. And uh when it was my time, it was my time.
30:07
30 minutes, 7 secondsMhm. Why does it bother you that those calls aren’t coming anymore?
30:14
30 minutes, 14 secondsIt it doesn’t bother me now. I I think in in those initial obviously the initial couple weeks when when you’re no longer going to the office, you’re no longer having those moments, you look
30:22
30 minutes, 22 secondsback and think, “Wait a minute. I I’m not getting a chance to go out and and serve in the same way. I’m not getting a chance to work with the same people anymore
30:30
30 minutes, 30 secondsor I’m not going out and and able to do the job that I loved doing or I enjoyed doing for 21 years.
30:37
30 minutes, 37 secondsAnd so it wasn’t that the the calls weren’t coming in and that I didn’t have anything to do. It was in those early first couple of weeks that I just needed
30:44
30 minutes, 44 secondsa reminder to say, “Okay, even though the calls aren’t coming in, I still have these things I have to do.” So it was just a accepting and and shifting that
30:53
30 minutes, 53 secondsthat perspective of mine because reality is for me that my own life changed. So
30:59
30 minutes, 59 secondsmy perception had changed. So and adver conversely as well my new reality was
31:06
31 minutes, 6 secondsforming. So along with my perspective my new reality was forming a new reality was was no longer the agent. I was no longer going to be responding. I was no
31:14
31 minutes, 14 secondslonger going to be getting those phone calls and that uh I would need to figure out other ways to move on. So yeah, my question is like underneath that, why was that bothering you?
31:25
31 minutes, 25 secondsI’m just curious. I’m just curious.
31:27
31 minutes, 27 secondsNo, absolutely, Jake. Part of that is part of our our identity where we we want to know we’re still needed where we know we’re still wanted. Okay.
31:35
31 minutes, 35 secondsWhere we know that uh we still have that kind of that that ability to do that job. And just because you’ve retired, you know, sometimes people kind of get
31:43
31 minutes, 43 secondsin their mind that oh, I’m not able to do the job anymore. And uh for me, it wasn’t about that. I could have stayed in the bureau for another nine years or,
31:51
31 minutes, 51 secondsyou know, seven years, but I could have stayed a few more years. And I realized for me, um, it was okay. Uh, because I
31:58
31 minutes, 58 secondsI’d been working on grieving that identity and and accepting that at some point this job was going to end. So
32:06
32 minutes, 6 secondsrecognizing that uh I still could serve in other capacities even though I’m not serving where those calls were happening
32:15
32 minutes, 15 secondswhere those uh you know hostage barricade situations were going on and that’s okay. Mhm.
32:21
32 minutes, 21 secondsSo and what’s your purpose now?
32:25
32 minutes, 25 secondsMy purpose is and as I look back is serving others
32:32
32 minutes, 32 secondsand allowing myself to serve others the best way that I can and being present for others in the way that God wants me
32:42
32 minutes, 42 secondsto be or I’m supposed to be. So, it’s not about me. It’s never been about
32:48
32 minutes, 48 secondsme. And uh often times, now don’t get me wrong, there have been times in my life where I got ahead of myself. You know,
32:55
32 minutes, 55 secondsthere were times in my life I go, I’m invincible. I can do anything. Yeah. You’re right. We go through that.
33:01
33 minutes, 1 secondI was hoping [laughter] you bring your I should have asked you to bring like your badge, you know.
33:04
33 minutes, 4 secondsWell, I do have my my retirement credentials with me somewhere. But, uh, you know, at that at that point, it’s it’s it’s in that aspect where, you
33:13
33 minutes, 13 secondsknow, everything that I’ve been able to do, I I feel like is in a service to others. And I’m I’m okay with that. Yeah.
33:20
33 minutes, 20 secondsAnd so being uh whether I I need to, you know, take on a certain call or go coach somebody or go work with somebody in
Chapter 13: What’s your purpose now?
33:28
33 minutes, 28 secondstheir time of need at time comes at the the sacrifice of time with my family.
33:34
33 minutes, 34 secondsBut also feel that God puts me in those places, those unique places where I’m supposed to exist.
33:39
33 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. We need we need to do like an intro with your credentials. Like have you knock on my door and be like FBI?
33:45
33 minutes, 45 seconds[laughter]
33:46
33 minutes, 46 secondsMaybe we’ll maybe we’ll we’ll do that later if uh Oh, if you ever got that knock, there would be about 25 30 other people behind me. So, you wouldn’t have just me one.
33:55
33 minutes, 55 seconds[laughter] So, so you so you know how to get them here is what you’re saying.
33:58
33 minutes, 58 secondsYes, we have a pretty good office around here in Nashville. So, [laughter] well, we’ll explore that after the podcast.
34:05
34 minutes, 5 secondsum you know it’s interesting um
34:12
34 minutes, 12 secondshow our identities can change as life changes
34:19
34 minutes, 19 secondsand I can relate to that to where you know what I’m doing now compared to like anesthesia and you know I used to
34:28
34 minutes, 28 secondslike push people around in uh the hospital and like you know transport put you know push them around the hospital you
34:35
34 minutes, 35 secondsand then um did bartending as a tech in the ER and and nursing school and um
34:43
34 minutes, 43 secondsman, it could be different because as as your identity changes because people can look at you a lot different besides you can look at yourself different like
34:51
34 minutes, 51 secondsI’m always on a path of personal growth but I don’t know if you’ve had this but I have had people look at me differently
34:59
34 minutes, 59 secondslike you close friends and family as as things have progressed and it’s been very interesting and I don’t haven’t known how to handle it at times to where
35:08
35 minutes, 8 secondscan look at myself and be like, oh, like I’m the same person, right? But like going from like a nurse to get my doctor, nurse anesthesia, I’ve lost some
Chapter 14: When identity changes, people treat you differently
35:16
35 minutes, 16 secondsfriends cuz just from them being around me like I had some friends come to um anesthesia school. It was my birthday
35:24
35 minutes, 24 secondsparty like 30th birthday party. I was in anesthesia school and some my friends came to visit and they’re like one of my friends like like pulled me aside and he’s like so everyone here’s going to be
35:32
35 minutes, 32 secondsdoctors. I’m like, I mean, sure, you know, eventually doc anesthesia, everyone say it. I’m like, I don’t, but they’re like, no, you know,
35:41
35 minutes, 41 secondsno one cares, I guess. You know, maybe they they did, you know what I mean?
35:45
35 minutes, 45 secondsOr getting done, people will be like, uh, oh, well, you you know, like you make all the money, you you can pay for this or whatever. I’m like, well, that’s
35:54
35 minutes, 54 secondsalso very interesting. or uh gaining some popularity on social media to where
36:01
36 minutes, 1 secondeven getting recognized here and there in public or people all a sudden treating you differently
36:08
36 minutes, 8 secondshas been weird, you know, and and hard to deal with because I’m continuously adapting my own
36:16
36 minutes, 16 secondsidentity and I don’t particularly look at myself any different, but some people will perceive
36:22
36 minutes, 22 secondsyou differently And the friends who I still have who are the best and family members, they don’t
36:31
36 minutes, 31 secondstreat me any differently. They known like where I came from, right? And I like to remind myself of that to where that’s not still my old identity. Right.
36:39
36 minutes, 39 secondsRight.
36:40
36 minutes, 40 secondsBut um stepping into who you are now or the identity who you want to become.
36:48
36 minutes, 48 secondsRight. I’m curious if you’ve struggled with any like that as you progressed from from your different career as a cop to FBI to to now you’re an author.
36:57
36 minutes, 57 secondsJake, it’s it’s fascinating hearing you you speak about identity and and your kind of changes and transitions throughout your life of the different
37:04
37 minutes, 4 secondsidentities you’ve taken on from the early grief of of you losing a father and uh recognizing that at an early age
37:13
37 minutes, 13 secondsand how that identity shifted for you as well and then you know growing up through your teen years and and trying to figure out what your job was going to be
37:20
37 minutes, 20 secondsand going from college to to you know medical [clears throat] school or becoming anesthesiologist and so forth doing everything Right. And then slowly that identity shifting.
37:29
37 minutes, 29 secondsI I think sometimes we what we don’t recognize or accept is that um everybody goes through these identity
37:37
37 minutes, 37 secondschanges and sometimes they will put project or or add different ideals or expectations of other people because
37:46
37 minutes, 46 secondssomething that is a motivating factor internally for them. So I have had those personally for myself. Yeah. people, you know, people treat you differently. And
37:54
37 minutes, 54 secondsand it’s funny, one of the things that uh people thought, especially certain family members and and uh friends, they go, “Oh, now you’re retired. Now you can
38:02
38 minutes, 2 secondscome over and do this. Now you can come over and do that.” I’m like, “You know, I don’t I don’t think you understand.
38:06
38 minutes, 6 secondsI’m busy more busy now than I was as as an agent.” Right? They’re like, “Well, but you’re retired.” Yeah.
38:11
38 minutes, 11 secondsYeah. But you don’t understand. I’m I’m teaching. I’m going to school. I’m doing all these things and I’ve got a chance to experience and explore and I’m traveling a little bit more. And uh they
38:20
38 minutes, 20 secondsgo, “Well, what? We thought you’d retired. You’re no longer working for the FBI.” I said, “Well, I’m not.” So, [laughter] it’s interesting that they were trying to navigate and trying to consider and think, “I don’t get it.
38:31
38 minutes, 31 secondsRetirement is supposed to be, you know, this way. You’re supposed to be at home.
38:34
38 minutes, 34 secondsYou can go fishing. You can go do all these incredible things, right?” Yeah. You go to Mexico or whatever. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah.
38:39
38 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. So, it’s often times it’s uh it’s not about convincing other people about your identity. oftenimes it’s accepting
38:48
38 minutes, 48 secondsourselves for who we are and what we’re becoming. And if we can learn to accept that and if we can come to terms and accept our new identity and be at peace
38:57
38 minutes, 57 secondswith it, then people see a different version of you. People begin to see how is it that you were able to navigate and reconcile your identity in a way that you came to terms with it a lot quicker.
39:08
39 minutes, 8 secondsBut these people that have have moved on and and retired, they weren’t able to do it the same way. So what’s it about you?
39:14
39 minutes, 14 secondsAnd so that’s what you can actually get a chance to explore and share more of.
39:19
39 minutes, 19 secondsBut I’ve learned that uh often times when those f friends and family members share those ideals with you, it’s not
39:26
39 minutes, 26 secondsnecessarily about us. It’s something that they’re trying to reconcile, something that they’re trying to navigate. So those same friends that looked at you differently, that thought
39:34
39 minutes, 34 secondsof you differently, there was a little part of them that they were trying to come to terms with and they exactly hadn’t. So they want
39:41
39 minutes, 41 secondswere trying to ask you those questions on what did you do or how did you reconcile those those shifts.
39:49
39 minutes, 49 secondsYeah. Very interesting. Yeah. It’s uh I always like to try and understand like what other people are are thinking and
39:56
39 minutes, 56 secondsand why you know whether you like how they’re behaving or or not you know.
40:02
40 minutes, 2 secondsWell that from an early age uh in all fairness that was something I always wanted to understand. I was want to understand about myself as well is that
40:11
40 minutes, 11 secondswhy do people make the decisions they make? What motivates them? What pushes them in that direction where they want to act a certain way, be a certain way
40:19
40 minutes, 19 secondsand do certain things. So what are those motivating factors? So I really have always want to understand that and when I went on to college and wanted to study
40:27
40 minutes, 27 secondspsychology, it shared a small part of that. But really when I became a a police officer and detective, that’s where I started learning more and more
40:35
40 minutes, 35 secondsabout people, their motivations, their needs and their, you know, certain desires that that they’re trying to fulfill, whether in a criminal state or
40:42
40 minutes, 42 secondsit’s just the general public. And so that’s always been kind of a passion of mine, trying to understand people,
40:49
40 minutes, 49 secondsunderstand the the the why behind their decision-m. And so, you know, we all have our various reasons, but it’s also
40:57
40 minutes, 57 secondsinteresting how we justify those certain things that we want to do and justify our choices and our reasoning. It’s almost in the way that people would
41:06
41 minutes, 6 secondsjustify certain aspects, even the written word, even the Bible, and say, well, in the Bible, it says this and this is what it’s trying to do. And you’ll you’ll see that you look back and
41:14
41 minutes, 14 secondsyou read it, you go, well, in early stages of my life, I saw it this way.
41:18
41 minutes, 18 secondsNow that I am either older, mature, a different part of my life, I see those same verses in a different way because
41:25
41 minutes, 25 secondswe we translate or or we accept them and and we work through them, navigate them differently. So it’s interesting where we will justify
41:34
41 minutes, 34 secondscertain actions to allow those choices to remain in our life.
41:39
41 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. Yeah. It’s almost like you’re like, “Oh, I’m going to interpret this way so it
41:47
41 minutes, 47 secondsserves me.” And then as [laughter] And as you get older, you’re like, “Oh, maybe this this or interpretation is uh
41:55
41 minutes, 55 secondsis going to be better, you know?” Right. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true.
42:02
42 minutes, 2 secondsI’m curious for like the general public or someone else like listening to this. What do you
42:10
42 minutes, 10 secondsthink would be like most helpful to them that they can learn from a FBI hostage negotiator?
42:18
42 minutes, 18 secondsYou know, I I kind of go back to my my first ideal of of understanding various rooms, right? as you had read um I’ve
42:26
42 minutes, 26 secondsgot a chance to coexist with family members and friends in those rooms where there was grief, there was loss, there
42:33
42 minutes, 33 secondswas shame, embarrassment, things that were happening and that those being the the visible room. I think one of the biggest lessons was for me was also
42:42
42 minutes, 42 secondsunderstanding the in invisible rooms and understanding what are the the underlying factors what is happening in that invisible room.
42:50
42 minutes, 50 secondsAnd so being present being able to to navigate those. But one of the first ways that you have you you can you learn
42:58
42 minutes, 58 secondsto navigate is you have to learn to control yourself, control your own emotionality. If you go into these
43:06
43 minutes, 6 secondssituations as an agent or an investigator or even as as a human being with heightened level of emotionality, then unfortunately you’re no longer in
43:15
43 minutes, 15 secondscontrol. You’re no longer in charge, meaning of yourself. So if you can learn to regulate your own emotionality, your own emotional well-being in those rooms,
Chapter 15: What anyone can learn from a negotiator
43:23
43 minutes, 23 secondsthen you’ll you can actually understand people a lot better. And then being present in those rooms, being present as
43:29
43 minutes, 29 secondsa whole as as as full version of yourself, not because you’re distracted thinking I I have to go home and do this or I I’m expecting these calls. I’m
43:37
43 minutes, 37 secondsexpecting these text me messages. And in the world that we live in, we’re we’re always trying to exist in multiple places at the same time. Very rarely,
43:45
43 minutes, 45 secondsmuch like what we did earlier today, you know, was you have your own version of a checklist, right, of of making sure that these things are done. And one of those
43:53
43 minutes, 53 secondsbig ones is making sure that um your phones are either silent or turned off.
43:58
43 minutes, 58 secondsAnd that was one of the things we did in in crisis negotiations as well. You know, before you walked in, it’s like, okay, everybody phones are silent or turned off.
44:05
44 minutes, 5 secondsNo other conversations besides this particular situation we’re talking about.
44:10
44 minutes, 10 secondsLeave everything else outside. So, let’s work on the problem at hand. So, having that conscious kind of conversation with yourself, not at a subconscious level,
44:18
44 minutes, 18 secondsbut reminding yourself what you’re walking into. And then you know kind of the third step in that understanding those invis invisible rooms is not being
44:26
44 minutes, 26 secondsafraid to have the difficult conversations not being afraid to ask the difficult questions. And people often get caught up thinking well if I
44:35
44 minutes, 35 secondsask a diff difficult question I’m going to seem like a jerk or I’m going to seem like I’m not being re respectful or or responsive to this particular person’s
44:43
44 minutes, 43 secondsneeds. And so when I often would walk into those rooms, I would often tell them, you know, I’m my apologies if I
44:51
44 minutes, 51 secondsdon’t show a lot of emotionality or if I don’t cry with you. I I’m here because we’re going to work through something difficult and I’m going to ask you
44:58
44 minutes, 58 secondsdifficult questions. And so at any point you feel like, you know, if I’m acting a certain way or you don’t want to answer these questions, just let me know. We’ll
45:06
45 minutes, 6 secondswe’ll figure out a different way to get this information. So being present with those individuals and being upfront and honest and and just letting them know as
45:16
45 minutes, 16 secondswell as yourself that it’s okay to have those conversations that most people never want to have. And that’s the only way you’re going to truly truly
45:24
45 minutes, 24 secondsunderstand what exists in that invisible room.
45:29
45 minutes, 29 secondsYeah. And I think those difficult conversations if we don’t have them those those problems are
45:36
45 minutes, 36 secondsgoing to are going to come up. of course, you know, and makes you think of there’s, you know, couple different ways
45:43
45 minutes, 43 secondsof living life. It’s like like [snorts] easy choices, hard life, you know, hard choices,
45:52
45 minutes, 52 secondse easy life. And right and how important is to be in control of yourself? Not to control others, right?
45:59
45 minutes, 59 secondsBut if you aren’t in control of yourself, then something else is controlling you. Of course, in negotiations, we teach that outside of
46:08
46 minutes, 8 secondseverything else, there’s only one thing that you’re truly truly in control of.
46:12
46 minutes, 12 secondsVery rarely are you in control of the subject or very rarely are you in control of the the crisis situation, aside from setting up, you know, perimeters and so forth. Very rarely are
46:20
46 minutes, 20 secondsyou in control of a lot of different things that are moving parts of any type of a kidnapping or hostage barricade, SWAT team, call out, whatever it may be, even an investigation, right, at times.
46:30
46 minutes, 30 secondsM but what you can control and the only thing you can control is yourself.
46:35
46 minutes, 35 secondsAnd if you can learn to regulate your heart rate, your breathing, your emotionality, come in from a perspective that that you’re going to try to be
46:43
46 minutes, 43 secondsreasonable and you can be reasonable and not emotional.
46:47
46 minutes, 47 secondsAt some point in some aspects of our life, that’s all we have. Yeah. That’s all we really have.
46:52
46 minutes, 52 secondsYeah. I like to do what’s called a tactical pause. [laughter] Yes. You ever heard of this?
46:58
46 minutes, 58 secondsI do. I have. Yes. So my interpretation of it, I’m curious what yours is. Even during the podcast, if you say something
47:07
47 minutes, 7 secondsreally deep, emotional or insightful, I’ll create extra space just to make sure you understood you’ve
47:14
47 minutes, 14 secondsbeen seen and heard and kind of let it breathe a little bit. We’re also some of my anesthesia experience or
47:22
47 minutes, 22 secondsany really hard difficult situation I experience in life, I’ll like pause for a second
47:29
47 minutes, 29 secondsand then respond compared to just reacting, right?
47:34
47 minutes, 34 secondsAnd even that short moment pause may seem like, oh, we’re not doing
47:42
47 minutes, 42 secondsanything in the moment. Maybe I should I should be reacting quicker. You’re changing the trajectory quite a bit, right, by not just creating that little extra
47:50
47 minutes, 50 secondsthat pause in that moment. So yeah, I just really like it to help just kind of be calm and grounded and use it as a
Chapter 16: The tactical pause
48:00
48 minutesstrategic tool. What what’s your interpretation of what you’ve learned? I’m curious.
48:03
48 minutes, 3 secondsWell, people often say and think that uh effective pauses I refer to it. It’s probably one of the most common skills
48:11
48 minutes, 11 secondsthat I use. And it’s it’s interesting that just recently I went and spoke at a at a high school, my old high school, Sutter High School. It was kind of kind
48:19
48 minutes, 19 secondsof neat to be able to go talk to this law enforcement class. Oh, it was your old high school.
48:22
48 minutes, 22 secondsAt my old high school, so they asked me to come back and seemed like a dream or something like something you go back to.
48:27
48 minutes, 27 secondsOh, it was it was fun. So, being able to go back and talk to this law enforcement class that I, you know, took over 30 years ago. And so, as I I was talking and and uh there was a question that was
48:36
48 minutes, 36 secondsposed and just for 15 to 20 seconds, I didn’t say a single word. I just stood in front of that class and the class
48:44
48 minutes, 44 secondspretty soon, you know, within the first five seconds, kids were kind of looking at each other like, “What’s going on?” Then there was a little bit of laughter.
48:50
48 minutes, 50 secondsMhm. [clears throat] And I didn’t say anything. I just stood in front of them. And then pretty soon, everybody in the room is feeling so uncomfortable and anxious. And they’re
48:59
48 minutes, 59 secondstrying to figure out what am I going to say? What am I going to do? And I look at that and I my my explanation to them was it’s interesting how some people
49:07
49 minutes, 7 secondscan’t exist in silence and that people have to fill silence. And so oftent times when we take what I as you call a
49:15
49 minutes, 15 secondstactical pause or I also refer to as an effective pause, it allows us to maintain clarity. It allows us to kind of clear our head of any other
49:22
49 minutes, 22 secondsdistractions that might be going on. But it also allows other people to kind of lean in and say, “Okay, something has shifted. Something has changed in this
49:29
49 minutes, 29 secondsroom and what is about to be said.” and they’ll they’ll actually recognize as well that you’re either going to say
49:37
49 minutes, 37 secondssomething important, valuable, and they start leaning in and being prepared to listen. And so, it’s in that moment where you take that effective pause and
49:45
49 minutes, 45 secondssay, “Okay, we’re going to talk about something.
49:50
49 minutes, 50 secondsIt’s not going to be easy.” And Jake, just like you started out this difficult time in your life when you received that
49:58
49 minutes, 58 secondscall, as you’re talking to me, I can see it in your eyes. You were back and forth thinking, grasping for those details,
50:06
50 minutes, 6 secondsgrasping for where you were standing and what your grandma’s tone was and what your response was and and you were searching for those memories and those
50:14
50 minutes, 14 secondswords. and you went back to that place and you shared it in a way that was very
50:21
50 minutes, 21 secondspersonal, very intimate, very important to you. And so for me to just
50:29
50 minutes, 29 secondsbe able to exist with you and not interrupt you and say, “Wait, wait, wait. I had that moment. Oh, yeah. You know, I bet that was hard.” And asking follow-up questions rather than just
50:37
50 minutes, 37 secondsallowing you to continue on with that conversation and just being present with you.
50:44
50 minutes, 44 secondsSo, it’s in those moments where that effective pause is important, but also on how you respond with your tone, with
50:52
50 minutes, 52 secondsyour voice, with the pace and the pitch, and just in this moment being able to respond back to you.
51:01
51 minutes, 1 secondyou’ve you’ll all be a be able to recall the way that I said certain things to you, how I said it, because
51:08
51 minutes, 8 secondsyou noticed that my voice had changed, my tone had changed, and so that effective pause allows you to exist, but
51:16
51 minutes, 16 secondsthen be able to take the conversation in a direction that you need to take it.
51:20
51 minutes, 20 secondsSo, I I think it’s an very very important tool as long as we recognize and accept that we don’t always have to break the silence. And sometimes
51:28
51 minutes, 28 secondsallowing other people to break the silence isn’t it just as important. So it’s it’s a very important part of communication if we can learn to to kind
51:38
51 minutes, 38 secondsof grasp it and and and use that skill.
51:43
51 minutes, 43 secondsYeah, I totally agree. Even my own thought process like, [snorts] oh, I thought this funny joke, I want to say it, you know. Well, I’ll wait.
51:52
51 minutes, 52 secondsYeah. you know, and uh it’s really nice to be talking to someone
51:59
51 minutes, 59 seconds[sighs] who gives space to what even what I’m saying to breathe cuz not a lot of people
52:08
52 minutes, 8 secondslisten well, you know, it’s just just how most of us uh are, which is okay.
52:13
52 minutes, 13 secondsYou know, it’s they’re not trained like I was a coach or even in the FBI to here’s how you listen. And um
52:23
52 minutes, 23 secondsguess is very muchly appreciated and not being scared of silence to where every little thing during the podcast like even when people are listening or
52:31
52 minutes, 31 secondswatching it doesn’t have to be filled with with with chatter.
52:35
52 minutes, 35 secondsYeah. I I guess you could say sometimes on on radio or at least c certain aspects of of media silence isn’t always a great thing because you never know
52:43
52 minutes, 43 secondswhat’s happening. But when you’re able to see it and when you’re able to exist in it and what we can take away from
52:52
52 minutes, 52 secondscertain aspects or conversations and what I’ve learned in my life is people don’t necessarily want their problems
53:00
53 minutesfixed, Jake. People don’t necessarily want you to come in and feel sorry for them. Sometimes people just want to be understood. Sometimes people just want to be heard.
53:10
53 minutes, 10 secondsYou might not be able to offer them a lot of things, but if you can just offer them some level of solace that you can understand them, you understand their
53:18
53 minutes, 18 secondsperspective. You may not agree with it, you may not see where they’re coming from, but you can exist in that moment with them and they feel heard and they
53:25
53 minutes, 25 secondsfeel seen, man, that [clears throat] goes a long ways. And if you can use some of the skills that we often teach in in in active listening and and
53:34
53 minutes, 34 secondsmeaning that, you know, what does it take to be a good listener? What does it mean to be an effective communicator?
53:40
53 minutes, 40 secondsAnd using, you know, all those the skills of open-ended questions, minimal encourages, emotional labeling, effective pauses, all those are important part of being a good listener.
53:49
53 minutes, 49 secondsAnd then being able to paraphrase and summarize a certain story so it solidifies, but you do it in a way that you allow the other individual to
53:57
53 minutes, 57 secondscorrect because I could very easily have said, “Yeah, when you got that call from your from your uncle and you felt this way,” you’re like, “No, no, I I got the
Chapter 17: People don’t want to be fixed, they want to be heard
54:04
54 minutes, 4 secondscall from my grandma.” And I may mix up something on purpose to see how you respond back to me. Interesting.
54:11
54 minutes, 11 secondsJust to elicit an emotional response because then that’s going to open up a pathway on you’re going to correct me and say, “No, it’s my grandma.”
54:20
54 minutes, 20 secondsWhat about your grandma that was so special? You’re like, “Well, we have dinner at her house. We do this and that. She was an important part of my life.” And so that opens up another
54:27
54 minutes, 27 secondsdoor, right? So depending on what my my not necessarily tactic or or what I want to elicit or where I want the conversation to go, I might even add
54:36
54 minutes, 36 secondsjust a small piece in that summary or that paraphrase the story back to you.
54:40
54 minutes, 40 secondsTry to see if you correct me or you take the conversation or am I implanting a certain ideal to take you on a on
54:47
54 minutes, 47 secondsanother journey. And so it’s it’s interesting that that those are an important part of active listening. But when I’m trying to build a rapport, like
54:55
54 minutes, 55 secondsyou know, just being able to communicate with you. And I want that kind of a kind of conversation, that’s an important part is being authentic and genuine and and honest.
55:06
55 minutes, 6 secondsAnd I’ve never taught being, you know, being deceptive or lying in in negotiations because that that ruins rapport. That that can disrupt a flow of
55:15
55 minutes, 15 secondsconversation if people can’t trust where you’re headed with the conversation or if you hear them. But it’s an important part of of just allowing people to exist and understanding them.
55:27
55 minutes, 27 secondsYeah. And it’s interesting to think of like ways of planting seeds to where it’s like it’s almost like I picture someone
55:35
55 minutes, 35 secondslike walking through a maze, but like you’re opening certain doors to get them to walk to walk through it intentionally. So just it’s a very very fascinating.
55:48
55 minutes, 48 secondsI asked you to teach some frameworks about the invisible rooms and I think you’ve already gone over that. Yeah.
55:55
55 minutes, 55 secondsSomething I’m curious about when I have you fill out a questionnaire before the before the podcast and helps me just
56:02
56 minutes, 2 secondsguide the conversation, make introduction, stuff like that.
56:05
56 minutes, 5 secondsYou mentioned the word invisible a couple times like two like two or three times. Do you feel
56:14
56 minutes, 14 secondslike there’s been moments in life where you have felt invisible or you’ve been in these invisible rooms?
56:25
56 minutes, 25 secondsThat’s a It’s pretty good personal question. That wasn’t on the list, by the way.
56:30
56 minutes, 30 secondsNo, no. I mean, no, no, it’s okay. I That’s That’s I’m just cur No, I’m just curious. That’s all. I don’t know.
56:36
56 minutes, 36 secondsUm could mean nothing, right? Absolutely. If I guess it does. It does. [laughter] Absolutely it does.
56:42
56 minutes, 42 secondsAnd and it’s fascinating that you you picked up on that and uh and incredible at the same time because I hadn’t
56:49
56 minutes, 49 secondsplanned on going this this route or this path. But um
56:56
56 minutes, 56 secondsyeah, Jake, there’s been a lot of rooms in my life that I’ve existed in. I felt invisible, invincible. I felt encouraged. I felt I could do anything.
Chapter 18: Have you ever felt invisible?
57:08
57 minutes, 8 secondsBut at the same time, [clears throat] I’ve walked back into those rooms and been around hundreds of people and felt absolutely invisible, not seen, not heard.
57:20
57 minutes, 20 secondsThe crowds didn’t change. My perspective, my identity changed. So,
57:28
57 minutes, 28 secondsI felt invisible in those same places where I didn’t think I would ever would professionally and personally.
57:35
57 minutes, 35 secondsAnd so those moments where I felt I was top of the world. I could do anything. I man I went overseas, served my country
57:43
57 minutes, 43 secondsin so many different capacities and did so many incredible and difficult things throughout my life. You’re a badass.
57:50
57 minutes, 50 secondsI I wouldn’t say I’m a badass.
57:52
57 minutes, 52 secondsI would I would I would say honestly I mean I’ve I’ve lived through some experiences objectively in my my personal [laughter] opinion.
57:58
57 minutes, 58 secondsThank you. I appreciate that. But I’ve lived through some unique experiences and and for me to have survived those the way that I did and to have
58:05
58 minutes, 5 secondsexperienced them and then to come back into environments where I wasn’t accepted the same way. Maybe I
58:15
58 minutes, 15 secondswasn’t uh present in the same way and I felt invisible. I felt unseen. I felt unheard.
58:23
58 minutes, 23 secondsYou can cry as loud as you want. You could try to convince people you are not who everybody makes you out to be, but
58:30
58 minutes, 30 secondsat the same time they fall in deaf ears because either your voice is silenced, you’re silenced, or they just refuse to
58:38
58 minutes, 38 secondshear you. So those invisible rooms and the invisibility we face is absolutely
58:46
58 minutes, 46 secondsreal and it’s painful. It hurts, man. It hurts so bad because you’d think, how could this be? These are the same people
58:54
58 minutes, 54 secondsthat I’ve been around. These are close friends and family members. These are professionals.
59:03
59 minutes, 3 secondsAnd to not be accepted in those same rooms, it wasn’t easy. But I never wanted to make anybody feel that way. So
59:10
59 minutes, 10 secondsthat’s where I recognized that I never want anybody to experience what I’ve had to experience.
59:17
59 minutes, 17 secondsIt’s funny that uh I was coaching a a young man the other day and he said to me, “Vinnie, I I I want to do what
59:27
59 minutes, 27 secondsyou’re doing. I want to be able to understand people. I want to be able to be present for people. I want to be able to see and hear what you know the way
59:34
59 minutes, 34 secondsyou kind of take in just the slightest of information from people and you can you you can interpret it and you can
59:41
59 minutes, 41 secondsaccess aspects of your your your logical and thinking and be able to paint an entire picture just because of these micro actions that might happen. He
59:48
59 minutes, 48 secondsgoes, “I I want to be just like you.” And I said, “Man, oh man.” I said, “I appreciate you sharing those words, but
59:57
59 minutes, 57 secondsI hope and pray that you never become like me.” Why do you say that?
1:00:02
1 hour, 2 secondsNever want anybody to go through the life experiences that I’ve had that I’ve had to navigate through to get to where
1:00:09
1 hour, 9 secondsI’m at today because um it was never easy.
1:00:17
1 hour, 17 secondsBut I want wanted him to be on his own journey. I wanted him to be on his own path where he can become the person that
1:00:25
1 hour, 25 secondshe wants to be. learn those skills along the way, but not aspire to be just like me
1:00:32
1 hour, 32 secondsbecause I would never want any of that pain and suffering and trauma to be felt by anybody else. So,
1:00:41
1 hour, 41 secondsit was kind statement. It was a kind gesture, Jake, but it’s not something that I would want anybody to go through because
1:00:49
1 hour, 49 secondsit’s my life. It’s my experience, my unfortunate events, and that’s okay.
1:00:54
1 hour, 54 secondsJust because you’ve gone through your life and your challenges and your loss and your pain and your grief doesn’t make it any better, worse, or greater than what I’ve gone through.
1:01:05
1 hour, 1 minute, 5 secondsMine isn’t any better, worse, or greater than yours. It’s just different. That’s our life. Yeah.
1:01:10
1 hour, 1 minute, 10 secondsAnd you have your experiences. So for me to think, oh, I I’ve got much worse than this person, much worse than that
1:01:17
1 hour, 1 minute, 17 secondsperson, and I don’t is just just what I had to live through. And I’m glad I made it through cuz I’ve been
1:01:26
1 hour, 1 minute, 26 secondsthrough some dark times. I’ve had some losses, but I’m still here.
1:01:35
1 hour, 1 minute, 35 secondsWell, I’m glad you’re here.
1:01:37
1 hour, 1 minute, 37 secondsAnyways, we can we could change the subject if you’d like.
1:01:41
1 hour, 1 minute, 41 secondsNo. any anywhere you want to go, my friend.
1:01:48
1 hour, 1 minute, 48 secondsI mean, I’m just wondering, coming back from some of these missions and these different difficult times you
1:01:57
1 hour, 1 minute, 57 secondsdid with your job, what weren’t people accepting about you? Cuz in my mind or my perspective, I think like you’re
1:02:05
1 hour, 2 minutes, 5 secondsserving, you’re out here trying to help people.
1:02:11
1 hour, 2 minutes, 11 secondsWhat is it about when you came back from a mission or one of these examples that when you walk into one of these rooms now you’re not accepted?
1:02:21
1 hour, 2 minutes, 21 secondsCan you just talk about that a little bit more?
1:02:23
1 hour, 2 minutes, 23 secondsSure. Um you know it’s it’s interesting that um
1:02:29
1 hour, 2 minutes, 29 secondsgoing to Iraq in 2008 was was truly a defining moment for me and uh as I said
1:02:37
1 hour, 2 minutes, 37 secondsI was supposed to be there for 3 months and uh the team that I had uh arrived with in country in theater they had left
1:02:45
1 hour, 2 minutes, 45 secondsand I ended up staying behind for another month because I was working a case okay a kidnapping case and so I wasn’t come
1:02:53
1 hour, 2 minutes, 53 secondscoming home until I had recovered the individuals.
1:02:56
1 hour, 2 minutes, 56 secondsAnd once I finally did come home in May of of 2008, I started having some horrible nightmares.
1:03:07
1 hour, 3 minutes, 7 secondsOkay. About what? My experiences. Okay. Over there.
1:03:11
1 hour, 3 minutes, 11 secondsUnderstandably so. [laughter] Yeah. the the different types of work that I ended up enduring, the hostages
1:03:19
1 hour, 3 minutes, 19 secondsthat I had recovered and um I couldn’t sleep in my own bed. I couldn’t interact with my own family.
1:03:30
1 hour, 3 minutes, 30 secondsI started looking at the world a little bit differently and pretty soon I found out that I wanted to go back.
Chapter 19: Coming home from Iraq
1:03:37
1 hour, 3 minutes, 37 secondsReally? Why?
1:03:40
1 hour, 3 minutes, 40 secondsSomething that a lot of other soldiers go through and I didn’t want to accept.
1:03:42
1 hour, 3 minutes, 42 secondsI was dealing with PTSD and trauma and dealing with a little bit of a survivor’s guilt as well.
1:03:49
1 hour, 3 minutes, 49 secondsSo I went back in October of 2008 again.
1:03:56
1 hour, 3 minutes, 56 secondsEnded up in outside of Baghdad in Solder City and some other unfortunate things
1:04:03
1 hour, 4 minutes, 3 secondsended up happening there and a mission got cut short. I came back but I never shared those experiences with other
1:04:10
1 hour, 4 minutes, 10 secondspeople. And it wasn’t until years and years later because uh I uh something
1:04:17
1 hour, 4 minutes, 17 secondsthat I don’t share too often um with people is that I’ve never really been under the influence of alcohol. I’ve never really drank.
1:04:26
1 hour, 4 minutes, 26 seconds51 years old and I’ve never really drank cuz uh addiction ran pretty strong in my family. Okay.
1:04:33
1 hour, 4 minutes, 33 secondsBut for me also I recognized later on why that was that I didn’t drink. And so it wasn’t something that I could turn
1:04:40
1 hour, 4 minutes, 40 secondsto. And it wasn’t until started looking at certain individuals in the Bible, and this is way before I started writing my first book. I looked at one of those
1:04:49
1 hour, 4 minutes, 49 secondsindividuals in the book with Noah and I thought, “That’s incredible. I know what Noah was going through.” And I started sharing that idea with a couple of
1:04:58
1 hour, 4 minutes, 58 secondspastors and with other church members like, “What are you talking about?” I said, “This is crazy and this is fascinating, but these individuals were
1:05:06
1 hour, 5 minutes, 6 secondsgoing through similar experiences like us.” Well, yeah, but they were being revered. They were being idolized in
1:05:12
1 hour, 5 minutes, 12 secondsways. We look at no Abraham and and Job and think, “Wow, they they dealt with such loss and such difficult times.” And
1:05:20
1 hour, 5 minutes, 20 secondswe begin to idolize them. We’ll never be like them. And I realized pretty quickly that uh no, we’re just like them. And
Chapter 20: Why he never drank
1:05:28
1 hour, 5 minutes, 28 secondsNoah’s story specifically resonated with me. And when I wrote his story in my book, Chosen and Flawed, a behavioral
1:05:35
1 hour, 5 minutes, 35 secondsanalysis of biblical characters, it resonated with me in the way that I wanted to share it with my other friends
1:05:43
1 hour, 5 minutes, 43 secondsand and colleagues in the military, first responders, and be able to share with them that Noah had similar struggles. Noah dealt with difficult
1:05:52
1 hour, 5 minutes, 52 secondsthings. And if this man couldn’t deal with him the same way, then we can look and say, “Okay, maybe we can do
1:05:59
1 hour, 5 minutes, 59 secondssomething a little different. learn from his experiences. And so I never shared with a lot of people. I’ve never sought
1:06:07
1 hour, 6 minutes, 7 secondsout therapy. I couldn’t go to my own pastor at the time. So I really didn’t have anybody. So I just kept everything inside.
1:06:17
1 hour, 6 minutes, 17 secondsAnd so even those same rooms that I existed in, I don’t know if those same colleagues really knew my real story. So I didn’t say anything.
1:06:28
1 hour, 6 minutes, 28 secondsI just lived with it because I felt that I could handle it more than what somebody else could.
1:06:34
1 hour, 6 minutes, 34 secondsSo that’s how I chose to exist.
1:06:38
1 hour, 6 minutes, 38 secondsWhy do you think you could handle it more versus coming to someone else?
1:06:44
1 hour, 6 minutes, 44 secondsFeel like God has blessed me with that and also it’s in a way call it a blessing or a curse has allowed me to be
1:06:53
1 hour, 6 minutes, 53 secondsstronger in ways that I need to be. And so I feel like I can handle things a lot more and a lot better and
1:07:01
1 hour, 7 minutes, 1 secondcompartmentalize them and compartmentalize them in my life and in my brain in ways that other people can’t. So I feel like I I can be better
1:07:10
1 hour, 7 minutes, 10 secondspresent for people than somebody else than maybe a therapist or a psychologist. Not to say that I’m trained to be a therapist or a
1:07:18
1 hour, 7 minutes, 18 secondspsychologist. I just feel like I can be present in different ways for people.
1:07:23
1 hour, 7 minutes, 23 secondsAnd I’m sure you can. I mean, you obviously have been through a lot. I’m sure I
1:07:30
1 hour, 7 minutes, 30 secondsdon’t understand how the difficulties of the job, but I’m sure it is very difficult obviously right now.
1:07:40
1 hour, 7 minutes, 40 secondsOne thing that I just want to get straight is though, you went through like a very tough time serving over there and you
1:07:49
1 hour, 7 minutes, 49 secondscame back and had trouble sleeping in really tough time understandably. So,
1:07:56
1 hour, 7 minutes, 56 secondsand then you went back on purpose. Mhm.
1:08:02
1 hour, 8 minutes, 2 secondsDo you think that’s similar to where someone experiences like a trauma say from childhood or relationship and they
1:08:10
1 hour, 8 minutes, 10 secondsget out of it and they go back to it because it’s what’s familiar? It’s what’s familiar. It’s what we can control.
1:08:17
1 hour, 8 minutes, 17 secondsAnd if we can control it, we know how to live and exist in it. And that’s where a lot of unfortunately individuals in the
1:08:25
1 hour, 8 minutes, 25 secondsmilitary or law enforcement where they will sacrifice their own well-being so
1:08:32
1 hour, 8 minutes, 32 secondsthey can be more present for other colleagues, for other soldiers, so they feel the need to go back and serve and be alongside of them. And so it’s uh it
1:08:42
1 hour, 8 minutes, 42 secondsis familiar and it’s in every aspect of our life, right? Whether it’s a relationship that we seek, whether it’s a familiarity in a difficult situation,
1:08:50
1 hour, 8 minutes, 50 secondsit’s what we can control and what we know best. And I’m glad that a lot of people can recover from that and move on. And they have their own versions of
1:08:58
1 hour, 8 minutes, 58 secondstherapy. And then there’s others that never recover from it. And I’ve had some of those friends as well that I’ve lost along the way. And that was painful. And
1:09:06
1 hour, 9 minutes, 6 secondsit makes you question, could you have done something differently? And I’ve recognized that maybe I couldn’t have done anything differently, but maybe moving forward I could be present for those individuals that really need me.
1:09:16
1 hour, 9 minutes, 16 secondsAnd so it wasn’t um always about grieving or for me to be over overseas
1:09:25
1 hour, 9 minutes, 25 secondsbecause it didn’t stop for me in 2009, Jake. I went back over and over and over to different countries and different
1:09:34
1 hour, 9 minutes, 34 secondsplaces in different parts of my life. I left behind my family and my kids. I wasn’t present for them in in ways that
1:09:40
1 hour, 9 minutes, 40 secondsI wish I would have been. So, I try to do the best that I can now. I can’t go back and change it.
1:09:48
1 hour, 9 minutes, 48 secondsNo.
1:09:49
1 hour, 9 minutes, 49 secondsAnd I just want to point out the best that you can do is the best you can do, you know, and that’s enough. And everyone
1:09:59
1 hour, 9 minutes, 59 secondsout here, whether we perceive it or not, is doing the best they can. [sighs] And even though
1:10:07
1 hour, 10 minutes, 7 secondsyeah, sometimes we don’t perceive people as doing, you know, oh, they’re they could be doing better,
1:10:14
1 hour, 10 minutes, 14 secondspeople have certain capacities or tool boxes or tools in their toolkit that me or you
1:10:22
1 hour, 10 minutes, 22 secondsdon’t necessarily have. And I think it’s important to give them, including ourselves, grace for that.
1:10:31
1 hour, 10 minutes, 31 secondsIt’s fascinating you said that, Jake, about uh you know, we can do the best that we can and and uh being present and
1:10:39
1 hour, 10 minutes, 39 secondsyou know, do anything or being present and doing what we can as long as we’re trying.
1:10:46
1 hour, 10 minutes, 46 secondsSometimes that’s not good enough for other people, especially our loved ones, because they’ve seen us at our best and they’ve seen us at our worst and they
1:10:55
1 hour, 10 minutes, 55 secondsknow what we’re capable of. And we go, but I’m giving you the best that I can.
1:10:58
1 hour, 10 minutes, 58 secondsI’m trying to be present. I’m I’m trying to be there and and there’s a there’s a an incredible movie with with Jake
1:11:05
1 hour, 11 minutes, 5 secondsGyllenhaal about uh the Boston Marathon bombing. It’s a it’s an incredible movie where he’s it’s a scene where he’s in
1:11:14
1 hour, 11 minutes, 14 secondsthe car and and his uh his wife at the time um is talking to him. I just need you to be
1:11:22
1 hour, 11 minutes, 22 secondsmore present. I just need you to be here. I feel like you’re not here. And and he has this breakdown. I’ve always been here. I am here. I was there
1:11:29
1 hour, 11 minutes, 29 secondsbecause of you. And he got hurt. And he just gets told over and over, you know, you’re not there, you’re not present,
1:11:36
1 hour, 11 minutes, 36 secondsyou’re not there. And you see this man break down in a way that a lot of people could relate because we present ourselves the best that we can. And sometimes that’s not
1:11:44
1 hour, 11 minutes, 44 secondsgood enough for those that are closest to us. And that’s what hurts. M and those are the times that having those
1:11:52
1 hour, 11 minutes, 52 secondshonest conversations saying what is it that you think I’m not doing or what can I do better? How can I be present better?
1:12:00
1 hour, 12 minutesHow do you see me showing up and how do you see me not showing up? And asking those questions in a way that opens up a
1:12:07
1 hour, 12 minutes, 7 secondsdialogue rather than adding emotionality on top of emotionality. Mhm.
1:12:12
1 hour, 12 minutes, 12 seconds[clears throat]
1:12:12
1 hour, 12 minutes, 12 secondsAnd if we can potentially obtain those clarifying questions and sometimes it is acknowledging and understanding that to
1:12:19
1 hour, 12 minutes, 19 secondsus ourselves, yeah, we’re showing up the best that we can in the time that’s needed, but it may not be the way the other person needs us to show up
1:12:28
1 hour, 12 minutes, 28 secondsand changing our perspective just slightly and showing up for them the way they need us to.
1:12:34
1 hour, 12 minutes, 34 secondsI don’t know, might help us out a little bit.
1:12:37
1 hour, 12 minutes, 37 secondsOh, I’m sure you can relate to that specific situation. If I had to guess, I can relate to a lot of those situations. That was a hard movie to watch. I’m sure. Yeah.
1:12:45
1 hour, 12 minutes, 45 secondsSounds like it was.
1:12:47
1 hour, 12 minutes, 47 secondsBut yeah, understandably so. Real quick before we keep going, if you’ve been nodding along to anything we’ve said in the last 30
1:12:54
1 hour, 12 minutes, 54 secondsminutes, and if anything hit, I want to ask you something. Most people who watch the podcast and get real value from it never hit subscribe. Not because they
1:13:03
1 hour, 13 minutes, 3 secondsdon’t want to, but simply because nobody asked. So, I’m asking if anything in this conversation gave you one idea, one
1:13:11
1 hour, 13 minutes, 11 secondsshift, one moment where you thought that’s exactly it, hit subscribe right now. It’s the one free thing you can do to keep this going. And if we’ve earned
1:13:19
1 hour, 13 minutes, 19 secondsit, we’ll keep earning it every single week. You negotiate with people in the worst moments of their lives. What did that teach you about talking to anyone?
1:13:31
1 hour, 13 minutes, 31 secondsWhat that taught me was every human reaction, every human behavior, it’s going to be different. And one of those early moments was uh it was fascinating.
1:13:42
1 hour, 13 minutes, 42 secondsI I’ve done a lot of death notifications throughout my life, specifically when I was uh with the sheriff’s department in a detective corner, and you go to the
1:13:51
1 hour, 13 minutes, 51 secondsfamily and you notify them when a loved one has passed on. And at that point, I’d done multiple not death notifications. And as I walked into this
1:13:59
1 hour, 13 minutes, 59 secondshouse, I I shared with the family, confirmed everything. I had a chaplain with me. I had a couple other officers with me and we went in to talk to this
1:14:08
1 hour, 14 minutes, 8 secondsfamily and the wife was there and the son was there. And I confirmed the their identity, confirmed their loved one. And when they last saw him, did all the
1:14:15
1 hour, 14 minutes, 15 secondschecks, right? And I basically shared with him that their loved one was no longer alive and had passed on.
1:14:22
1 hour, 14 minutes, 22 secondsThe son who was an adult just broke down crying. Fell to the ground. Broke down.
1:14:30
1 hour, 14 minutes, 30 secondsWife looks looks at me, says, “Okay, do you have anything else?” I go, “What?
1:14:35
1 hour, 14 minutes, 35 secondsWhat?” Yeah. She go I go she goes, “Do you have anything else?” And I looked at my the chaplain and my colleague. I go, “No, that’s all I have.” She picks up her
1:14:43
1 hour, 14 minutes, 43 secondspurse and says, I go to go grocery shopping. I said, “Would you like to talk? Would you like?” She goes, “No, I’m good.” She went shopping. And it was
1:14:51
1 hour, 14 minutes, 51 secondsone of those moments that I thought, is this shock? Is this grief? What is this? And it was just the way this woman
1:15:00
1 hour, 15 minuteswas processing her loss [clears throat] that she was picking up the pieces and just moving on and she was going to go grocery
1:15:08
1 hour, 15 minutes, 8 secondsshopping. And to her, that became more important than the sudden loss and the death of her husband in a car accident.
1:15:14
1 hour, 15 minutes, 14 secondsAnd it’s incredible. So, you never know how people are going to respond to those critical crisis situations and challenges. [clears throat]
1:15:22
1 hour, 15 minutes, 22 secondsAnd one of those, interestingly enough, that uh that that I’ve learned early on and and one of the things that we’ve slightly talked about in the past is
1:15:29
1 hour, 15 minutes, 29 secondsthis idea of of anger. People display anger as an emotional reaction to different parts, right? and and you come
1:15:37
1 hour, 15 minutes, 37 secondsonto a scene. You come in as a police officer or as an agent and you whether you’re doing an interview interrogation or you’re you’re conducting a logical
1:15:45
1 hour, 15 minutes, 45 secondsinvestigation on case or just talking to people and they become angry at you, we begin to recognize that anger is not
1:15:54
1 hour, 15 minutes, 54 secondsa primary emotion. It’s a secondary emotion. It’s a byproduct of something that’s underlying that’s far deeper. and
1:16:02
1 hour, 16 minutes, 2 secondstrying to understand the root of that problem and not the action not the result is often times where a lot of
1:16:10
1 hour, 16 minutes, 10 secondsother people were faltering. So when I took the moment to actually understand and conceptualize that anger was not the
1:16:18
1 hour, 16 minutes, 18 secondsprimary emotion and I asked open-ended questions, emotional labeling, I used effective pauses because when somebody’s angry with you, they can remain angry
1:16:26
1 hour, 16 minutes, 26 secondsfor only so long and you just sit there in silence. Don’t say a single word. But people can’t maintain that level of anger, frustration for a prolonged
1:16:33
1 hour, 16 minutes, 33 secondsperiod of time. And so allowing myself to to not necessarily accept that anger, but dealing with it in a way that
Chapter 21: Anger is a secondary emotion
1:16:42
1 hour, 16 minutes, 42 secondspeople were not expecting. And then using that even in my personal life with my kids or with other friends and family members and
1:16:50
1 hour, 16 minutes, 50 secondsthey may be angry at you and you realize, okay, is it embarrassment? Is it shame? Is there is there disrespect?
1:16:56
1 hour, 16 minutes, 56 secondsIs there considerable amount of of of frustration on something else that that were inaction or some in a way that I
1:17:03
1 hour, 17 minutes, 3 secondswasn’t present? You deal learn to uncover that, deal with that. And so
1:17:09
1 hour, 17 minutes, 9 secondspeople are incredibly fascinating and one aspect people will be joyous in one moment and then be completely in anguish in the next.
1:17:21
1 hour, 17 minutes, 21 secondsAnd I’ve had both sides of the spectrum.
1:17:23
1 hour, 17 minutes, 23 secondsI’ve been present in all of those moments with people. Yeah, [snorts] it has to be fascinating.
1:17:29
1 hour, 17 minutes, 29 secondsAnd um you know I believe anger is usually a secondary emotion to fear.
1:17:37
1 hour, 17 minutes, 37 secondsMhm. Fear of the unknown.
1:17:40
1 hour, 17 minutes, 40 secondsAnd [clears throat] fear usually is a motivating factor where we don’t know what’s going to happen next. And we can’t we can’t control fear. Well,
1:17:49
1 hour, 17 minutes, 49 secondspeople can’t often control fear. But if we can learn to control the our brain from thinking of these wild ideals and
1:17:58
1 hour, 17 minutes, 58 secondsand the imagination goes into some deep dark places and our brain begins to fill in gaps because of either prior
1:18:05
1 hour, 18 minutes, 5 secondsexperience for example I’m sure we’ve all experienced you know you send off a text message to somebody and you [clears throat] don’t receive
1:18:12
1 hour, 18 minutes, 12 secondsthat receive a response back right it’s important time for a tactical pause [laughter] tactical pause right there you go tactical text Pause.
1:18:20
1 hour, 18 minutes, 20 secondsTactical text. Pause. Exactly. There you go. That’s good. So, you send that text message off and you go, “I know this person read it. I know this person saw
1:18:28
1 hour, 18 minutes, 28 secondsit.” Because they have their phone with them all the time. It’s a scene.
1:18:31
1 hour, 18 minutes, 31 secondsYeah. [laughter] Exactly. Right. And you don’t get that response back. And then you wait a minute, 2 minutes, 5 minutes,
1:18:38
1 hour, 18 minutes, 38 seconds10 minutes, maybe a day goes by, you go, “Did I do something? Did I say something wrong?” And you you’re now in this
1:18:46
1 hour, 18 minutes, 46 secondsmoment thinking, “What happened?” And your brain takes you into the incredible places thinking, “Are they mad? Did I do something
1:18:55
1 hour, 18 minutes, 55 secondsoften times not realizing maybe their phone isn’t with them or their phone is turned off or their phone battery died?” And and when you get the response back, hey, my apologies for not responding
1:19:03
1 hour, 19 minutes, 3 secondssooner, but I had x, y, and z this happened. You’re like, “Oh, okay. Well, for 24 hours, for 10 hours, however long that period was,
1:19:12
1 hour, 19 minutes, 12 secondsour our mind can’t rest.” And so even in those moments of uncertainty, fear
1:19:18
1 hour, 19 minutes, 18 secondscontrols and dictates our existence. And if we can learn to say, “Okay, I don’t know what’s happening, but when they
1:19:26
1 hour, 19 minutes, 26 secondsrespond back, I’ll be okay. When they text me back, I’ll be okay.” Mhm.
1:19:30
1 hour, 19 minutes, 30 secondsAnd we’ll deal with it then. Until then, we just need to move on. Yeah.
1:19:34
1 hour, 19 minutes, 34 secondsAnd sometimes we get caught in that loop of did I do something? What is it about me? Because we want something tangible.
1:19:41
1 hour, 19 minutes, 41 secondsWe think that it’s something about us when
1:19:44
1 hour, 19 minutes, 44 seconds[clears throat]
1:19:44
1 hour, 19 minutes, 44 secondsmaybe it had nothing to do with us.
1:19:46
1 hour, 19 minutes, 46 secondsYeah, it’s that certainty which is interesting because you can take the same situation and you
1:19:53
1 hour, 19 minutes, 53 secondsperceive it differently. Your body, your mind, your emotions will react completely differently. Mhm.
1:19:58
1 hour, 19 minutes, 58 secondsWhere I don’t if you’ve heard this example before, you can use it for any anytime you use for the text, etc. But someone’s late for meeting you somewhere.
1:20:06
1 hour, 20 minutes, 6 secondsMhm. And my perception can be whether 10 minutes late, you can start getting angry. I can’t believe they’re not here in time.
1:20:15
1 hour, 20 minutes, 15 secondsYou know, or and you get angry anger basically.
1:20:18
1 hour, 20 minutes, 18 secondsYou know, it’s so disrespectful. I can’t believe Jake wouldn’t show up.
1:20:21
1 hour, 20 minutes, 21 secondsYou know, just I’m late. That that’s that’s objective reality, right?
1:20:27
1 hour, 20 minutes, 27 secondsSame situation can be, oh, he’s not he’s not normally late. What’s going on, right?
1:20:32
1 hour, 20 minutes, 32 secondsOh, he’s he’s 20 minutes late. Like, did something bad happen? Of course, you know, like now I’m now now like worried, right?
1:20:40
1 hour, 20 minutes, 40 secondsSame exact event, right? But worried or angry. Absolutely.
1:20:45
1 hour, 20 minutes, 45 secondsAnd so it’s our interpretation, our our perspective on those things.
1:20:49
1 hour, 20 minutes, 49 secondsSo often times I’ll refer to that as as baselines. What are people’s baselines?
1:20:54
1 hour, 20 minutes, 54 secondsAnd we all have different baselines, right? And even even for us today, you were establishing kind of my baseline of of how we were going to talk. And even
1:21:02
1 hour, 21 minutes, 2 secondsto the point where, you know, normally my baseline would be leaning back and and my legs crossed or, you know, interacting with you that way in in this
1:21:09
1 hour, 21 minutes, 9 secondssetting, you know, what is that going to look like? And if somebody’s baseline is for me, I do I have a horrible
1:21:17
1 hour, 21 minutes, 17 secondsissue with being on time. It’s uh you know, friends and family members, they’ll tell you that yep, you know,
1:21:24
1 hour, 21 minutes, 24 secondsit’s just something that our if you want our vendor there at 2 o’clock, you better tell them one o’clock.
1:21:30
1 hour, 21 minutes, 30 seconds[laughter]
1:21:31
1 hour, 21 minutes, 31 secondsSo, and there my my friends in high school, you know, used to say, “Oh, he’s going to be late to his own funeral.” Which is quite comical because, you
1:21:40
1 hour, 21 minutes, 40 secondsknow, it’s it’s it’s interesting that they have conceptualized this idea that that’s my baseline. And no matter how hard I try, sometimes there are times
1:21:47
1 hour, 21 minutes, 47 secondsthat I try to be there, do the best that I can to be at somewhere on time. And the times that I am, yeah, that’s great. You made it. The
Chapter 22: Baselines and being late
1:21:56
1 hour, 21 minutes, 56 secondstimes that I’m not, who I get told about. M and so when somebody doesn’t meet that baseline and they deviate from the baseline like you know you think oh
1:22:03
1 hour, 22 minutes, 3 secondssomething’s not right they’re 20 minutes late they’re 30 minutes late they didn’t call or text something else has gone gone on that’s when you begin to either become
1:22:11
1 hour, 22 minutes, 11 secondsworried or or that fear and that’s when you do respond in a different manner and when they do show up it’s a it’s a sense of relief are you okay
1:22:20
1 hour, 22 minutes, 20 secondsdo we want to postpone this do you want to talk about it and sometimes I’ve just shown up and saying I’m Sorry, I should
1:22:28
1 hour, 22 minutes, 28 secondshave been here, but I wasn’t. No excuses. I’m sorry. Let’s move on.
1:22:34
1 hour, 22 minutes, 34 secondsSometimes that’s all it takes. Because we think that, oh, I send a text message that they’re going to think, oh, he’s late. I have. I’ve sent those text
1:22:42
1 hour, 22 minutes, 42 secondsmessages. I’m 20 minutes out, 30 minutes out, and then something else happens, and I have to deal with it. And then there are those times where I have no
1:22:50
1 hour, 22 minutes, 50 secondsexcuse, and I really don’t. I just say, you know what? I messed up, and I’m sorry. And that moment of of recognizing that it’s okay to apologize and it’s
1:22:58
1 hour, 22 minutes, 58 secondsokay to to at least allow people to see that side of you and all you can do is try to do better and that’s all I can
1:23:06
1 hour, 23 minutes, 6 secondsdo. Yeah. And I think that bridges that gap quicker to where you just say
1:23:14
1 hour, 23 minutes, 14 secondsand by the way you were on time today which is great. You know, if anything, I was we’re still [laughter] podcasting and I’m like, you know, but uh but um
1:23:23
1 hour, 23 minutes, 23 secondsyeah, for the record family listens to this. He was on He was early. A half hour early. I was late.
1:23:30
1 hour, 23 minutes, 30 secondsThere you go. But got to Mrs. Young. [laughter] Yes. Sorry.
1:23:34
1 hour, 23 minutes, 34 secondsNo, no, it was good. Uh warranted, right? Um, the times when I’ve been late, I’ll just say I should have left
1:23:42
1 hour, 23 minutes, 42 secondsearlier or I had something recently where could you I can make up whatever excuse it was. Right. Right.
1:23:49
1 hour, 23 minutes, 49 secondsI didn’t show up to work and as soon as I realized it was my fault, I just just admit it right away. Oh, that was that was that was my mistake.
1:23:58
1 hour, 23 minutes, 58 secondsRight.
1:23:59
1 hour, 23 minutes, 59 secondsAnd it resolved the situation very quickly, right? compared to if I would start going through all these excuses and and
1:24:06
1 hour, 24 minutes, 6 secondsthings and stuff like that or it’s not as respectable. You know, another another thing I think of is like
1:24:14
1 hour, 24 minutes, 14 secondsI uh was just on vacation and uh a tour guy was supposed to pick me up at like 8:30 in the morning, right? 8:10, 8:30,
1:24:22
1 hour, 24 minutes, 22 seconds8:45. I’m like nothing, you know? And so I call this guy and I tell him, “Yeah, supposed to be like a tour.” And I could
1:24:30
1 hour, 24 minutes, 30 secondshear like babies crying in the background. [laughter] And the guy’s response was, “Oh shit.” And then uh send, you know, he couldn’t really speak English uh as in Portugal.
1:24:42
1 hour, 24 minutes, 42 secondsAnd then uh he’s like, “Send me send me send me ticket. Send me a ticket.” And then uh and then it just hung up with me. I’m like, “Okay.” You know, I’m
1:24:50
1 hour, 24 minutes, 50 secondslike, “Well, he’s probably not coming.” So now so now so now what do I do? You know, so I had a car rented. I’m like, “You know what?
1:24:59
1 hour, 24 minutes, 59 secondsI’ll just go to that place myself, right? You know, it’s like a hike. I’m like, I’ll just go go there myself. And so I’m driving up there like it’s been
1:25:07
1 hour, 25 minutes, 7 secondslike a half hour at least, you know, and then I’m getting my phone’s getting blown up. Texts, calls, oh, the driver’s there like to pick you up. I’m like,
1:25:15
1 hour, 25 minutes, 15 seconds”Dude, I’m not coming.” Right? You know, I was there early, right?
1:25:21
1 hour, 25 minutes, 21 secondsYour response was, “Oh, shit.” you know, and then proceeded to give me all these excuses
1:25:29
1 hour, 25 minutes, 29 secondsof why they also didn’t want to give me a refund. I was like, look, I would have respect them a lot more had I just said, “Hey, I totally messed up.
1:25:39
1 hour, 25 minutes, 39 secondsI’m sorry. Can understand, but it was that not owning up to it that really made me lose respect in that
1:25:46
1 hour, 25 minutes, 46 secondssituation to where normally I still kind of let it go, but not be like, “No, no, you’re going to give me a refund. I mean, you just you just you weren’t there, you know?
1:25:55
1 hour, 25 minutes, 55 secondsRight. Right.
1:25:58
1 hour, 25 minutes, 58 secondsOne thing I want to make sure we talk about because I I think it is entertaining and most people don’t know the story is Oops.
1:26:06
1 hour, 26 minutes, 6 secondsCan you tell me the story how Noah was the first drunk in the Bible? [laughter] Oh my goodness. Yeah. It’s it’s ironic
1:26:15
1 hour, 26 minutes, 15 secondsthat uh that I would uh [snorts] I would relate to Noah in certain ways and not so certain ways. It’s fascinating. So
1:26:23
1 hour, 26 minutes, 23 secondsNoah’s story is incredible, right? So God calls Noah at the age of 600 to uh to build the ark. And as old as he was,
1:26:32
1 hour, 26 minutes, 32 secondshe had three sons and his wife and he starts building this incredible incredible ark. Incredible feat, right?
1:26:39
1 hour, 26 minutes, 39 secondsGod gives him specific designs and he took him took him years and years to build that thing. And finally, the
1:26:46
1 hour, 26 minutes, 46 secondsanimals show up two by two. And uh and God says, “All right, on a certain day, you’re going to close those doors once
1:26:54
1 hour, 26 minutes, 54 secondseverything’s done.” And during that whole time, he’s preaching, he’s telling people, “God’s going to flood the earth.
1:27:00
1 hour, 27 minutesGod’s going to flood the earth.” And people like, “Come on, Noah. God’s not going to flood the earth. Where this rain going to come from?” Right. Yeah. Come on.
1:27:06
1 hour, 27 minutes, 6 secondsExactly. Right. [laughter] So, he’s talking to him that during those times.
1:27:09
1 hour, 27 minutes, 9 secondsSo, they’ve heard the message. All of his neighbors, friends, close family members, they’ve all heard it. But yet he’s still moving on.
Chapter 23: Noah was the first drunk in the Bible
1:27:16
1 hour, 27 minutes, 16 secondsFinally, that door closes. And he’s in the ark with his family, his wife, his three sons, and his three
1:27:23
1 hour, 27 minutes, 23 secondsdaughter-in-laws, his son’s wives. For seven days straight, people are outside that ark mocking him,
1:27:30
1 hour, 27 minutes, 30 secondsmaking fun of him. Hey, no. Where is the where is the the rains? Where is all this happening? And he doesn’t say
1:27:38
1 hour, 27 minutes, 38 secondsanything. And finally on the seventh day, it starts raining.
1:27:42
1 hour, 27 minutes, 42 secondsFirst couple of days, people are celebrating. They’re having a great time parting it up, right?
1:27:48
1 hour, 27 minutes, 48 secondsAnd finally, a little bit of fear sets in because the water is rising. And now people are beginning to
1:27:56
1 hour, 27 minutes, 56 secondsunderstand that this is going to be a calamity. This is going to be something quite difficult. And and and what’s happening all around the waters rising
1:28:03
1 hour, 28 minutes, 3 secondsand and the and and people are slowly disappearing.
1:28:08
1 hour, 28 minutes, 8 secondsAnd Noah starts hearing the cries, the weeping, the the the anguish that’s happening outside of him, begging and
1:28:15
1 hour, 28 minutes, 15 secondspleading, people saying, “Let us in, Noah. Let us in.” He can’t let anybody in. He can’t open that door.
1:28:22
1 hour, 28 minutes, 22 secondsAnd as the days continues, the floodwaters rise and the ark slowly starts to to starts floating. And he can
1:28:30
1 hour, 28 minutes, 30 secondshear in the distance all the people that he loved. All of people that he’s lived with for 600 years slowly disappearing.
1:28:39
1 hour, 28 minutes, 39 secondsThe distant cries of men, women, children, animals.
1:28:43
1 hour, 28 minutes, 43 secondsAnd as slowly those voices, those cries start vanishing.
1:28:51
1 hour, 28 minutes, 51 secondsI can imagine it was just silence as the ark is afloat and moving on and navigating wherever God has taken it.
1:29:00
1 hour, 29 minutesand pretty soon nothing.
1:29:02
1 hour, 29 minutes, 2 secondsHe has no idea. The entire world is gone.
1:29:07
1 hour, 29 minutes, 7 secondsHe’s lost everything except the those that are on that ark. And after quite some time,
1:29:14
1 hour, 29 minutes, 14 secondsthe waters start start drawing back and the ark comes to a stop and he finally gets out, lets the animals out and he builds an altar and makes a sacrifice.
1:29:27
1 hour, 29 minutes, 27 secondsBut the first thing he does after doing all of that is he plants a vineyard. And he’s the first man in the Bible to plant
1:29:36
1 hour, 29 minutes, 36 secondsa vineyard in grapes and he turns it into wine and he becomes drunk off of it. This man
1:29:43
1 hour, 29 minutes, 43 secondshad lived for 600 years not having ever experienced that.
1:29:48
1 hour, 29 minutes, 48 secondsAnd then after the ark, he lives under the influence of alcoholism. And it’s
1:29:55
1 hour, 29 minutes, 55 secondsshown multiple times where one of his sons walked in and saw his nakedness.
1:30:00
1 hour, 30 minutesAnd there’s a lot of other theories that go on into what the son might have done, but I don’t know if I necessarily agree with that.
1:30:06
1 hour, 30 minutes, 6 secondsBut Noah felt embarrassed and ashamed and actually cursed one of his sons and kicked him out of of the family. And as
1:30:15
1 hour, 30 minutes, 15 secondshe continued on, he lived those last 350 years of his life under a constant state of drunkenness.
1:30:25
1 hour, 30 minutes, 25 secondsThe first 600 years of his life, I believe, are captured in about five chapters.
1:30:31
1 hour, 30 minutes, 31 secondsThe last 350 years of his life when it said, “And Noah lived to be 950 years
1:30:37
1 hour, 30 minutes, 37 secondsold are captured in two verses.” It’s incredible to think that this man
1:30:46
1 hour, 30 minutes, 46 secondswasn’t just dealing with became an alcoholic just because he was dealing with the trauma. He was dealing with all
1:30:53
1 hour, 30 minutes, 53 secondsof the the the cries and all of those those sounds of people disappearing
1:31:02
1 hour, 31 minutes, 2 secondsand losing his loved ones. And maybe it was survivors guilt. Maybe it was guilt of not being able to save more people. But he was following God’s plan.
1:31:11
1 hour, 31 minutes, 11 secondsAnd I looked at his story and I said, “This was Noah who was one of God’s chosen.” And at any point, Noah could
1:31:18
1 hour, 31 minutes, 18 secondshave turned and said, “God, take this affliction away from me. Help me out.”
1:31:26
1 hour, 31 minutes, 26 secondsWould God have responded? I think so. I think God would have shown up for him, but he never asked. And I look at that
1:31:33
1 hour, 31 minutes, 33 secondsstory and I go, God never turned his back on Noah, but Noah turned his back on God. And to think that this
1:31:43
1 hour, 31 minutes, 43 secondsincredible individual who everybody knows the story of and sermons get preached from the pulpit on Sunday
1:31:50
1 hour, 31 minutes, 50 secondsmornings about this man who, you know, God saw fit to build the ark. Very rarely are we taught the lesson that
1:31:57
1 hour, 31 minutes, 57 secondsthis man was also dealing with trauma, PTSD, and potentially even contemplated thoughts of
1:32:05
1 hour, 32 minutes, 5 secondsI don’t know everything that went on his mind, but I do know what that man may have been experiencing. And to be able to look at his perspective and his story
1:32:14
1 hour, 32 minutes, 14 secondsand him and as a as a human being, I think I’ve been through some difficult times.
1:32:21
1 hour, 32 minutes, 21 secondsThere’s been times I’ve turned my back on God, but God’s never turned his back on me. So, if somebody like Noah could
1:32:29
1 hour, 32 minutes, 29 secondshave a difficult time and and he was not able to navigate those 350 years, then I’ll do the best that I can to navigate
1:32:37
1 hour, 32 minutes, 37 secondsthe time that I have left in hopes that uh I can get some level of solace or peace.
1:32:47
1 hour, 32 minutes, 47 secondsYeah. And I think other people when they experience these
1:32:55
1 hour, 32 minutes, 55 secondstroubles in their life, whatever difficulty it is,
1:33:03
1 hour, 33 minutes, 3 secondsit’s comforting to know that God still has our back and that we need to not turn our back on him.
1:33:13
1 hour, 33 minutes, 13 secondsIf I can add one little component on there. Yeah, of course, Jake. It’s sometimes we don’t feel we’re worthy.
1:33:22
1 hour, 33 minutes, 22 secondsSometimes we’re we don’t feel we’re worthy of the love or God’s grace because of our actions or what we may
1:33:30
1 hour, 33 minutes, 30 secondshave done. [clears throat] And I don’t know if Noah felt that way, but I do know that he lived that life of
1:33:38
1 hour, 33 minutes, 38 secondsthe last part of his life in that sense of it was so difficult for him. It
1:33:45
1 hour, 33 minutes, 45 secondswasn’t easy to be separated from his own family, but that’s the life he lived. And maybe he felt he wasn’t worthy anymore. And
1:33:53
1 hour, 33 minutes, 53 secondssometimes we have a a strange way of convincing ourselves that we are not worthy and that we have done far greater
1:34:01
1 hour, 34 minutes, 1 secondthings and realize there’s people in the Bible, David being an incredible one, the man essentially committed murder
1:34:09
1 hour, 34 minutes, 9 secondsmuch like Moses. Moses committed murder, but God still used them. They were punished for their actions, but they
1:34:17
1 hour, 34 minutes, 17 secondsstill turned back. And even somebody as Adam and Eve, they tried to hide their shame. And I look and I
1:34:25
1 hour, 34 minutes, 25 secondsactually look at that one question that God posed when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit and they were hiding and they built their clothes or made their
1:34:33
1 hour, 34 minutes, 33 secondsclothes out of uh out of fig leaves and they said, “We were naked.” And God said, “Who told you you were naked?
1:34:44
1 hour, 34 minutes, 44 secondsI never told you you were naked.” But in their mind, they accepted that there was shame and
1:34:51
1 hour, 34 minutes, 51 secondsembarrassment. So they held themselves to a standard that God was never holding them to. So they convinced themselves
1:34:59
1 hour, 34 minutes, 59 secondsthat there was shame and embarrassment in that. When God posed the question, who was nobody else except those two?
1:35:07
1 hour, 35 minutes, 7 secondsSo it’s not that I don’t think any one person makes the choice to live a life of solitude or or
1:35:15
1 hour, 35 minutes, 15 secondsor living a life of anguish and sadness and sorrow.
1:35:20
1 hour, 35 minutes, 20 secondsI think sometimes we forget that uh we’re human and we’ve made mistakes and
1:35:27
1 hour, 35 minutes, 27 secondsGod is such that he can work through those difficulties.
1:35:32
1 hour, 35 minutes, 32 secondsYeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, think of what would have happened if Noah like reached out to God. You know what I
1:35:40
1 hour, 35 minutes, 40 secondsmean? It’s like it’s like he was trying to have a yacht party after the boat sailed. [laughter] Yeah. You know, man, like, man, at least, you know, he’s trying to party with the animals.
1:35:51
1 hour, 35 minutes, 51 secondsYeah. God, [laughter] look at what I did. This is great. Help me out here.
1:35:54
1 hour, 35 minutes, 54 secondsYou know what? What would his life have been like if he would have if he never would have planted that vineyard?
1:36:00
1 hour, 36 minutesYeah. And even somebody like Cain and Abel, Cain, I I assessed him to have a
1:36:08
1 hour, 36 minutes, 8 secondslow sense of empathy, no sense of remorse, and potentially even having a narcissistic
1:36:14
1 hour, 36 minutes, 14 secondsperspective and confirmation bias. But after he killed his brother, he’s working in the field and God’s God walks
1:36:22
1 hour, 36 minutes, 22 secondsup to him and I almost imagine Cain working in the field and God walks
1:36:30
1 hour, 36 minutes, 30 secondsup behind him and says, “Cain, where’s your brother Abel?” Cain never even looks back. I don’t even
1:36:38
1 hour, 36 minutes, 38 secondsthink that he even took a moment to acknowledge God and says, “What am I my brother’s keeper?
1:36:48
1 hour, 36 minutes, 48 secondsBut why would God ask a question to an answer he already knows?
1:36:52
1 hour, 36 minutes, 52 secondsYeah, God knew the answer. Mhm. But he still posed the question to Cain.
1:36:58
1 hour, 36 minutes, 58 secondsAnd if Cain would have turned and said, “God, I messed up. I’m so sorry.” What would his life have been like? Yeah.
1:37:06
1 hour, 37 minutes, 6 secondsInstead, he hid. And then when God sent him out and said, “That’s it.
1:37:14
1 hour, 37 minutes, 14 secondsyou’ll wander the wander the earth as a as a as a wanderer for the rest of your life. And he said, “What’s going to happen if somebody comes and kills me, somebody comes for me?” And he’s afraid.
1:37:25
1 hour, 37 minutes, 25 secondsWhat is he afraid of? But he didn’t ask for grace or salvation for anybody else, but he again only looked internally for
1:37:34
1 hour, 37 minutes, 34 secondshimself. It’s incredible to see his story as well.
1:37:39
1 hour, 37 minutes, 39 secondsWhen we talked on the phone before, I would like to at least offer you an opportunity to do some coaching. So they said uh we would on the podcast. Uh
1:37:47
1 hour, 37 minutes, 47 secondsyou had an interesting perspective on Jacob as well in the Bible. Do you mind telling that story? [laughter] Since my name is Jacob, I just you know
1:37:55
1 hour, 37 minutes, 55 secondsI can’t I can’t help myself but uh want to hear about that.
1:37:59
1 hour, 37 minutes, 59 secondsWell, it’s fascinating. Right. We look at Jacob and his brother Esau, right?
1:38:03
1 hour, 38 minutes, 3 secondsAnd they’re they’re born into uh to to Rebecca and uh and Jacob. Um I’m sorry,
1:38:11
1 hour, 38 minutes, 11 secondsIsaac. So, Isaac and and Rebecca, and she has twins, and it’s Esau and uh and
1:38:18
1 hour, 38 minutes, 18 secondsJacob. Esau is the older one. So, through this this uh this uh plan and and this contrived ideal by Rebecca, um
1:38:27
1 hour, 38 minutes, 27 secondsJacob falsely gets the blessing from Isaac and takes the blessing away from from Esau. And Jacob goes on the run.
1:38:37
1 hour, 38 minutes, 37 secondsAnd at the time, I would say Jacob was probably in his um mid to late 20s, early 30s. So, Jacob goes on the run and Esau is hunting him.
Chapter 24: The Jacob story reframed
1:38:50
1 hour, 38 minutes, 50 secondsEsau was this incredible powerful individual who even Isaac recognized that he was the man’s man and Jacob
1:38:59
1 hour, 38 minutes, 59 secondswasn’t as powerful as strong. And in fact, when Esau was born, it was said that Jacob hung on to Esau’s heel and that’s how he came out. Right?
1:39:08
1 hour, 39 minutes, 8 secondsSo, as Esau hunted trying to find Jacob and Esau made a lot of unfortunate decisions where he even married a woman
1:39:16
1 hour, 39 minutes, 16 secondsagainst Isaac’s wishes. And so, now we have Esau living this life here. And
1:39:24
1 hour, 39 minutes, 24 secondsJacob runs and hides. and he ends up and he ends up hiding with some of uh his mother Rebecca’s relatives and ends up
1:39:32
1 hour, 39 minutes, 32 secondsin a different land and he meets the love of his life, Rachel, and falls in love, marries her or wants
1:39:40
1 hour, 39 minutes, 40 secondsto marry her and there’s a fascinating story that goes on there as well. But then finally, it’s time for him to come to come back to his father, his his
1:39:50
1 hour, 39 minutes, 50 secondsfather Isaac. And as he’s coming back, he’s sending negotiators and he’s sending people forward saying, “Hey, let Esau know that I’m coming back. Let Esau
1:39:59
1 hour, 39 minutes, 59 secondsknow.” They’re sending someone like you ahead.
1:40:01
1 hour, 40 minutes, 1 second[laughter]
1:40:01
1 hour, 40 minutes, 1 secondThere you go. There you go.
1:40:02
1 hour, 40 minutes, 2 secondsEsau, what’s up, Esau? We’re willing to give you all of this. Right. But Esau is not having any of it. He wasn’t tactically pausing.
1:40:09
1 hour, 40 minutes, 9 secondsHe wasn’t tactically pausing. He wanted He wanted to kill Jacob. Right.
1:40:13
1 hour, 40 minutes, 13 secondsSo, finally, one night, Jacob knows that Esau is getting closer and closer. So, Jacob leaves his four wives and and his
1:40:21
1 hour, 40 minutes, 21 secondsuh sons, 11 of them I believe at the time, and leaves them across the river and then heads back,
1:40:29
1 hour, 40 minutes, 29 secondsheads to the other side of the river and he’s he’s all by himself. And finally, this individual comes out and he fights
1:40:39
1 hour, 40 minutes, 39 secondsthis individual throughout the night. By now, keep in mind that Jacob had been doing manual labor. He had been working
1:40:46
1 hour, 40 minutes, 46 secondshard. He became a completely different person than what had left 25 some odd years beforehand. Mhm.
1:40:55
1 hour, 40 minutes, 55 secondsAnd Esau was no longer the same person that he was. So, it’s interesting that we look at that story and I thought it
1:41:02
1 hour, 41 minutes, 2 secondswas incredible that that it’s been said that God wrestled or Jacob wrestled with God.
1:41:11
1 hour, 41 minutes, 11 secondsAnd I looked at that story over and over and said, “Why would God be afraid of the sunlight?”
1:41:18
1 hour, 41 minutes, 18 secondsWhy would God wrestling with Jacob not want daylight to come? Because they’re fighting in the darkness.
1:41:25
1 hour, 41 minutes, 25 secondsAnd he says, “Let me go.” And Jacob says, “Not till you bless me. Not till you bless me.” He says, “You
1:41:32
1 hour, 41 minutes, 32 secondsare no longer that Jacob. You are one who wrestled with God.” And I looked at that story and I thought, “That’s incredible. He didn’t just just wrestle
1:41:42
1 hour, 41 minutes, 42 secondswith God that night. He had been wrestling with God for that entire time.
1:41:45
1 hour, 41 minutes, 45 secondsAnd he knows he had deceived Esau. And so when he was wrestling with that person,
1:41:54
1 hour, 41 minutes, 54 secondsGod doesn’t need to shrink himself to wrestle God and lose a battle to him.
1:42:00
1 hour, 42 minutesAnd I assess that story to be that when the individual said, “You will no longer be known as Jacob, but you will be known as Israel.
1:42:10
1 hour, 42 minutes, 10 secondsEvery other person in the Bible, Abram went to Abraham, Sarai went to Sarah, multiple other people once their names were changed in the Bible, the name
1:42:19
1 hour, 42 minutes, 19 secondsstuck. For Jacob, the name kept on going back and forth. It went from Israel to Jacob. And he’s referred multiple ways.
1:42:26
1 hour, 42 minutes, 26 secondsSo, I thought maybe it wasn’t God that he was wrestling with.
1:42:31
1 hour, 42 minutes, 31 secondsMaybe it was Esau. And when Esau finally got the strength and and hit him on the side to dislocate his hip,
1:42:41
1 hour, 42 minutes, 41 secondsthat was Esau being able to get away because Esau needed a face saving mechanism. So the next day when Jacob
1:42:48
1 hour, 42 minutes, 48 secondsand Esau meet finally meet, Jacob scared, but Esau embraces him. Welcome back, brother.
1:42:54
1 hour, 42 minutes, 54 secondsWelcome back. And so it’s incredible that these stories are alive and present in the Bible. And we’ve been taught
1:43:02
1 hour, 43 minutes, 2 secondsthese stories one way, but what if they’re so incredible that, you know, we are able to see much deeper in humanity.
1:43:11
1 hour, 43 minutes, 11 secondsWe were able to see much deeper in these individuals. And Jacob was just as flawed, was had made just as many mistakes. And his sons went on to do
1:43:21
1 hour, 43 minutes, 21 secondssome incredible things as well. And I after Jacob, I write uh Joseph’s story.
1:43:25
1 hour, 43 minutes, 25 secondsAnd after Joseph’s story, I write talk about Moses. And it was through Jacob where the Israelites and through Joseph
1:43:32
1 hour, 43 minutes, 32 secondsthey ended up in Egypt and then through Moses they had to come back out of Egypt. So everything was set. So my
1:43:40
1 hour, 43 minutes, 40 secondspoint to even Jacob’s incredible story is he had this incredible woman that he loved because he had uh Joseph and
1:43:48
1 hour, 43 minutes, 48 secondsBenjamin through Rachel and their stories went on and that was
1:43:54
1 hour, 43 minutes, 54 secondsthe wife he truly loved. And Jacob has this in amazing story in our in in
1:44:03
1 hour, 44 minutes, 3 secondsbiblical stories and and theology that we can still relate to that individual.
1:44:09
1 hour, 44 minutes, 9 secondsEverybody’s felt that type of incredible love. Everybody’s felt that incredible type of loss, that incredible type of fearing. But how often have we wrestled with God?
1:44:20
1 hour, 44 minutes, 20 secondsAnd oftentimes we’re truly wrestling with ourselves because we may not feel worthy and God’s just watching what are you doing.
1:44:31
1 hour, 44 minutes, 31 secondsYeah.
1:44:33
1 hour, 44 minutes, 33 seconds[snorts]
1:44:33
1 hour, 44 minutes, 33 secondsYeah. And it’s how how we interpret it, right? Yes.
1:44:36
1 hour, 44 minutes, 36 secondsJust convincing ourselves that we are worthy.
1:44:39
1 hour, 44 minutes, 39 secondsYou know, Jacob went away. He went to Tony Robbins. He started podcasting.
1:44:45
1 hour, 44 minutes, 45 seconds[laughter]
1:44:46
1 hour, 44 minutes, 46 seconds[gasps] And now he’ll meet his Rachel one day.
1:44:48
1 hour, 44 minutes, 48 secondsYes, he will. And he comes back as a strong individual and realizes, “Oh, all right. I know I can I can get there now.” Yeah.
1:44:56
1 hour, 44 minutes, 56 secondsBut I’m not alone anymore.
1:44:57
1 hour, 44 minutes, 57 secondsAmen. You can He’s capable of helping and serving others. That’s it.
1:45:02
1 hour, 45 minutes, 2 secondsSpeaking which how can I serve you? Uh we do a a brief coaching session here.
1:45:07
1 hour, 45 minutes, 7 secondsIs there is there something specific you want to be coached about? You know, it’s uh it’s interesting that uh in this kind
1:45:13
1 hour, 45 minutes, 13 secondsof new stage in my life, I find myself um where for the last, you know, 21
1:45:20
1 hour, 45 minutes, 20 secondsyears in the FBI and and my prior being in law enforcement, I was never really the type of individual that had a lot of social media that that really got out
1:45:28
1 hour, 45 minutes, 28 secondsthere. And so just establishing social media within the last two years since my book release um kind of building that type of of uh outreach and platform.
1:45:39
1 hour, 45 minutes, 39 secondsThere’s times where I actually even feel uncertain about myself at times thinking can I really do this? Can I really go out and do the things that I’m supposed
1:45:46
1 hour, 45 minutes, 46 secondsto be doing and how can I be used in in the way that uh that that God wants me to be used? So building a whether it’s a
1:45:55
1 hour, 45 minutes, 55 secondsplatform and outreach, you know, now that I’m working on my third book and uh the first two books are out there and
1:46:02
1 hour, 46 minutes, 2 secondsthis is my first actual podcast, which thank you again for for inviting me here and I’ve I’ve really enjoyed the
Chapter 25: A live coaching session
1:46:09
1 hour, 46 minutes, 9 secondsconversation and being able to see how I can not only grow but figure out how I can also
1:46:18
1 hour, 46 minutes, 18 secondsunderstand what the the the field looks like and what I could bring to the table to see how I can serve on in platforms like this.
1:46:27
1 hour, 46 minutes, 27 secondsOkay. So, if I could try and recap or just want to just validate to make sure yeah, we’re working on the right thing or can
1:46:35
1 hour, 46 minutes, 35 secondshelp maybe guide you towards that is working on maybe growing and seeing like how you can serve and bring value.
1:46:43
1 hour, 46 minutes, 43 secondsCorrect. Is that is that correct? Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Why is that important to you?
1:46:48
1 hour, 46 minutes, 48 secondsI think it’s always going to be an important part of my my being, part of my DNA. Um, serving others and how I can
1:46:56
1 hour, 46 minutes, 56 secondsbe best you utilized and used in the environments that I operate in. So, I’m no longer operating in the
1:47:04
1 hour, 47 minutes, 4 secondsenvironment within the federal government or within law enforcement, right? But now I cannot actually still operate where I’m working or teaching
1:47:11
1 hour, 47 minutes, 11 secondsand and working with local law enforcement, teaching resilience or emotional intelligence. but that that service to others and and
1:47:21
1 hour, 47 minutes, 21 secondsensuring that whatever process that I’m should follow or need to follow or how I
1:47:28
1 hour, 47 minutes, 28 secondscan be present that’s that sense of service has always been an important part of my DNA and part of my family.
1:47:36
1 hour, 47 minutes, 36 secondsWell, and it it rings out true. I mean, if you look at some of your past, you your whole life is service, right? It makes sense for it to to continue on.
1:47:45
1 hour, 47 minutes, 45 secondswhat do you need to address in order to achieve that goal?
1:47:52
1 hour, 47 minutes, 52 secondsI think maybe even accepting [clears throat] that uh you know the message is relevant uh it’s needed and
1:48:00
1 hour, 48 minutesum and that uh I’m the right person and what are those messages that I could be delivering or that I could be sharing.
1:48:09
1 hour, 48 minutes, 9 secondsyou know, the this whole story of of like I said, my my third book being that uh um understanding behaviors in
1:48:16
1 hour, 48 minutes, 16 secondsinvisible rooms, developing a negotiator’s mind. And I I share a lot of my personal stories within the bureau, within these negotiations and
1:48:25
1 hour, 48 minutes, 25 secondsinterrogations that I’ve done throughout my career, but not in a way to sensationalize the subjects, the victims, or the stories themselves, but
1:48:33
1 hour, 48 minutes, 33 secondsto really humanize and understand that I used emotional intelligence as a mechanism and as a process to build
1:48:40
1 hour, 48 minutes, 40 secondsconnection with people, whether they’re kidnappers, whether they’re murderers or or terrorists, and and how I was able to
1:48:48
1 hour, 48 minutes, 48 secondsto navigate those difficult times and those difficult situations. So understanding that if I’m the best
1:48:56
1 hour, 48 minutes, 56 secondsperson to share that story, how can I be effective at it?
1:49:00
1 hour, 49 minutesSo accepting you are the right person for this and you’re going to make a difference.
1:49:08
1 hour, 49 minutes, 8 secondsA matter of speaking Yeah. I’m shaking in trying [laughter] to to summarize it but but also clarify right in the same sense we talked you mentioned earlier
1:49:15
1 hour, 49 minutes, 15 secondseven if I say something not correct or you mean something else yeah this is an opportunity for you to for you to to correct me. So no absolutely thank you.
1:49:25
1 hour, 49 minutes, 25 secondsYes of course. So [sighs] I’m trying to think of a way and
1:49:32
1 hour, 49 minutes, 32 secondslike maybe like even like a scale or a strategy.
1:49:39
1 hour, 49 minutes, 39 secondsIt’s going to be a short session but how will we know we’ve been successful by the end of the session to you?
1:49:49
1 hour, 49 minutes, 49 secondsSo, how do we quantify measure of success and how do I quantify what success looks like? Would that be fair?
1:49:57
1 hour, 49 minutes, 57 secondsYeah, if we could rate on a scale of something if if [clears throat] there’s like a thought or emotion or or a level of certainty related to what you’re wanting to
1:50:06
1 hour, 50 minutes, 6 secondsaccomplish. So being able to to maybe identify or look at different pathways um of you know whether this you know
1:50:14
1 hour, 50 minutes, 14 secondsdoing the podcast is is an incredible outreach and opportunity or public speaking or or doing these conferences which I’ve really enjoyed um done
1:50:23
1 hour, 50 minutes, 23 secondsconferences most of my life and and speaking at with large audience or even small audiences through through schools.
1:50:28
1 hour, 50 minutes, 28 secondsUm, so maybe even understanding, you know, certain aspects of of, you know, you’ve you’re obviously an expert in and well experienced in this world of
1:50:37
1 hour, 50 minutes, 37 secondspodcasting and and bringing right people and connecting right people and and and being able to have these conversations and so, you know, understanding if this
1:50:46
1 hour, 50 minutes, 46 secondsis a the platform or a media that u makes this type of conversation effective, what I bring to the table effective or would it be through my
1:50:55
1 hour, 50 minutes, 55 secondswriting, would it be through my speaking? So, okay. I I appreciate the compliment on uh perceiving me as an expert. I don’t
1:51:02
1 hour, 51 minutes, 2 secondsview myself as that for uh well, this is our 39th episode, I believe. Still pretty good.
1:51:10
1 hour, 51 minutes, 10 secondsSo, um thank you. I we have a good uh I have an amazing people that work with me and we
1:51:17
1 hour, 51 minutes, 17 secondsput a lot of effort into it. Of course, if I had to narrow down like a scale, what if we focus on like certainty of a path?
1:51:25
1 hour, 51 minutes, 25 secondsOkay. for you and how certain you are on the right path. Perfect.
1:51:29
1 hour, 51 minutes, 29 secondsThat sound good? So zero, you’re not certain at all you’re on the right path.
1:51:33
1 hour, 51 minutes, 33 seconds10, you know, 100% for sure I’m on the right path. Where do you think you’re at right now?
1:51:38
1 hour, 51 minutes, 38 secondsUm, I’d probably say, you know, maybe a seven or eight because I I see myself doing the writings, the research, the
1:51:46
1 hour, 51 minutes, 46 secondsthe the speaking engagement. So, it’s just that closing that that final gap and trying to figure out where to take that next level. I’ve, you know, only
1:51:54
1 hour, 51 minutes, 54 secondsbeen out of retirement or at least retired now for a little over um 7 months or 10 months or so.
1:52:02
1 hour, 52 minutes, 2 secondsMhm. So, as far as certainty goes, you’re at like a seven or eight, but you want to be at a 10.
1:52:06
1 hour, 52 minutes, 6 secondsYeah. Absolutely. I want to be headed in a direction that feels a lot more confident in terms of, you know, this is the right path where where I’m headed.
1:52:14
1 hour, 52 minutes, 14 secondsYeah.
1:52:14
1 hour, 52 minutes, 14 secondsYeah. Understandably so. Right. You want to be you put your GPS in somewhere, you want to make sure you’re at least going the right direction, right? Absolutely. Absolutely.
1:52:22
1 hour, 52 minutes, 22 secondsVery important. It’s very important.
1:52:24
1 hour, 52 minutes, 24 secondsOkay. So when you think about the path in which one you want to choose in certainty of it, what’s your initial first thought that comes up?
1:52:40
1 hour, 52 minutes, 40 secondsAm I am I teaching or sharing the message of
1:52:46
1 hour, 52 minutes, 46 secondsresilience and survival and being able to allow people to feel some level of balance in their life and
1:52:56
1 hour, 52 minutes, 56 secondscan I effectively share that message to those individuals that need to hear it?
1:53:04
1 hour, 53 minutes, 4 secondsOkay. So wondering about like am I teaching these right things? I say right
1:53:11
1 hour, 53 minutes, 11 secondsbut I mean am I teaching resilience and can I effectively teach those things?
1:53:18
1 hour, 53 minutes, 18 secondsWhen you have that thought can I effectively teach am I teaching these certain topics I want to focus on? What emotions come up?
1:53:26
1 hour, 53 minutes, 26 secondsum emotions of of gratitude that uh I could operate in this environment. Um and there’s always
1:53:36
1 hour, 53 minutes, 36 secondsgoing to be a a counterbalance to that as well. Uncertainty.
1:53:39
1 hour, 53 minutes, 39 secondsYou know, certain people will look at u emotional intelligence as a weakness.
1:53:44
1 hour, 53 minutes, 44 secondsAnd I don’t see it as a weakness. I see it as as an enhancement to the skills and being able to to encourage and strengthen our our our ability to
1:53:52
1 hour, 53 minutes, 52 secondsconnect with people. So I think all of that has uh has an emotional connection to it where you know it’s purpose driven
1:54:01
1 hour, 54 minutes, 1 secondsense driven and uh encouraging in that level as well. So there’s a lot of emotionality attached to it because essentially this is my career now you
1:54:10
1 hour, 54 minutes, 10 secondsknow so this is where I’m headed. Yeah, of course. Yeah, understandable that there’s going to be a lot of energy and emotion, right?
1:54:15
1 hour, 54 minutes, 15 secondsAnd emotion connected and that gap which is usually most most likely some sort of negative emotion, some of that or uncertainty is what’s preventing you
1:54:23
1 hour, 54 minutes, 23 secondsfrom getting to that of course that 10, right?
1:54:27
1 hour, 54 minutes, 27 secondsSo, when you have that uncertainty toward whatever emotion it sparks for you, right? Um, we’ll talk about that
1:54:36
1 hour, 54 minutes, 36 secondsjust a little more. That when you have that uncertainty, is there a specific emotion that is tied to that? Is it fear? Is it anger? Is it is it doubt?
1:54:46
1 hour, 54 minutes, 46 secondsIs it something else?
1:54:48
1 hour, 54 minutes, 48 secondsUm, I’m just trying to just direction is all I don’t know if it’s necessarily
1:54:56
1 hour, 54 minutes, 56 secondsfear. Um maybe it’s navigating the uncertainty because ironically enough uh when it
1:55:05
1 hour, 55 minutes, 5 secondscame to, you know, critical crisis situations out in the out in my professional life.
1:55:11
1 hour, 55 minutes, 11 secondsOh, I knew how to navigate that. You had a a shooting going on. You had a hostage barricade situation. Yeah. I knew how to
1:55:19
1 hour, 55 minutes, 19 secondshow to operate within those environments. I knew exactly what was needed.
1:55:22
1 hour, 55 minutes, 22 secondsYeah. And uh you know there is this new world that I’m operating in now of of not only social media be but being out
1:55:29
1 hour, 55 minutes, 29 secondsthere in in the world in a way that uh I’ve never really been.
1:55:37
1 hour, 55 minutes, 37 secondsPeople didn’t really know a whole lot about me and uh even some of those close friends and family members don’t know all the
1:55:45
1 hour, 55 minutes, 45 secondsreal stories or all of the the the difficulties I may have endured. So does that open a pathway of where our
1:55:54
1 hour, 55 minutes, 54 secondsconversation started earlier of people recognizing seeing your vulnerabilities and do they exploit them?
1:56:01
1 hour, 56 minutes, 1 secondOkay, let’s talk about that a little bit more.
1:56:04
1 hour, 56 minutes, 4 secondsYeah, because that could be what’s going that could be what’s creating that uncertainty or holding you back from taking action, right? cuz I’m guessing
1:56:10
1 hour, 56 minutes, 10 secondswhen you’re thinking that it’s not leading to action that’s getting you closer towards your goal and
1:56:19
1 hour, 56 minutes, 19 secondskeep you on the right path. So let’s let’s talk about explore a little bit more. Tell me a little bit more about
1:56:26
1 hour, 56 minutes, 26 secondsthis this uncertainty people may be not perceiving what you’re doing as how you’re perceiving what you’re doing.
1:56:36
1 hour, 56 minutes, 36 secondsI think I think I’ve I’ve it’s been a very kind um response I’ve received over
1:56:45
1 hour, 56 minutes, 45 secondsthe years about my my topics, my messages, uh about my writings.
1:56:53
1 hour, 56 minutes, 53 secondsAnd maybe it’s just a version of myself as well, right? Um it’s interesting that recently I um see if I can say this the right way.
1:57:06
1 hour, 57 minutes, 6 secondsThis is another area that I I wasn’t planning on going, but it’s fascinating that you’re you’re drawing this out in this way. Um,
1:57:14
1 hour, 57 minutes, 14 secondsironically enough, there are times in our life where we will hold ourselves hostage.
1:57:23
1 hour, 57 minutes, 23 secondsIn order for ourselves to heal and overcome those challenges, we set the ransom so high that the demand will never be fulfilled.
1:57:34
1 hour, 57 minutes, 34 secondsAnd ironically enough, I’d like to think I’m pretty good at my job as a negotiator,
1:57:41
1 hour, 57 minutes, 41 secondsbut maybe I’m not willing to seek my own release. Why not?
1:57:51
1 hour, 57 minutes, 51 secondsCuz maybe I can’t be present the same way for others.
1:57:56
1 hour, 57 minutes, 56 secondsHealing for me comes as a price of healing for others. I’m okay with that.
1:58:05
1 hour, 58 minutes, 5 secondsSo, I’m okay with the uncertainty. I’m okay with the fear. I’m okay with the disappointments because I know how to navigate them.
1:58:15
1 hour, 58 minutes, 15 secondsYou mind if I point something out that something I observed or that is objectively true about you? Please.
Chapter 26: Holding myself hostage
1:58:22
1 hour, 58 minutes, 22 seconds[snorts]
1:58:26
1 hour, 58 minutes, 26 secondsYou’ve accomplished so much.
1:58:31
1 hour, 58 minutes, 31 secondsYou’re an author twice getting ready to be writing more more multiple books.
1:58:37
1 hour, 58 minutes, 37 secondsYou’re a police officer for years and decades after that being an FBI negotiator.
1:58:48
1 hour, 58 minutes, 48 secondsyou’re more than capable of making Instagram reels [laughter]
1:58:55
1 hour, 58 minutes, 55 secondsor or being on podcasts, especially if you’re willing to even dive deep and find out what is going on underneath.
1:59:05
1 hour, 59 minutes, 5 secondsYou know, I think the most ironic thing is that in a way you’re a hostage negotiator who’s holding themselves hostage.
1:59:18
1 hour, 59 minutes, 18 secondsYeah.
1:59:23
1 hour, 59 minutes, 23 secondsFascinating part of our life is that um as you said, you see me one way that uh I’ve
1:59:31
1 hour, 59 minutes, 31 secondsaccomplished. I had a a friend of mine, this was when I was at Quanico getting ready to deploy again overseas for
1:59:39
1 hour, 59 minutes, 39 secondsanother operation and I had to go to Quantico for for uh something specific
1:59:46
1 hour, 59 minutes, 46 secondsin uh May of 2009 and he I meet one of the guys that I had
1:59:53
1 hour, 59 minutes, 53 secondsdeployed to within Iraq and he’s taken on a new job at Quantico and he said, “Hey man, how’s it going?” We caught up.
2:00:01
2 hours, 1 secondHe said, “What are you doing here?” I said, “Well, I’m getting ready to deploy out again and I just came here to pick up some equipment.” And he looks at me, he goes, “What are
2:00:08
2 hours, 8 secondsyou doing?” He go, “What are you talking about?” He goes, “You’ve done more in the few years you’ve been in the bureau.” Because up to that point, I’d
2:00:16
2 hours, 16 secondsonly been in the bureau for about five, six years. He goes, “You’ve done more in this short time than most other agents
2:00:24
2 hours, 24 secondswill do. What are you trying to prove?” I’m not trying to prove anything. He goes, “Then why keep risking it? Why keep going out every single time?
2:00:32
2 hours, 32 secondsMy response was don’t feel like I’ve done enough.
2:00:40
2 hours, 40 secondsI shared with you that uh I was very blessed in being able to come to this wonderful country. I was offered man
2:00:48
2 hours, 48 secondsincredible opportunities. In fact,
2:00:50
2 hours, 50 seconds[laughter]
2:00:51
2 hours, 51 secondsI was joking earlier and sharing that uh I received the American dream award in 2003.
2:00:57
2 hours, 57 secondsAnd what’s that? It was just a local award with a local newspaper in Northern California. A friend of mine had nominated me and uh you know that uh and
2:01:06
2 hours, 1 minute, 6 secondsin that news article I shared that someday I’m going to become an FBI agent and I’m going to go on to do these things and this is before I became an FBI agent
2:01:13
2 hours, 1 minute, 13 secondsand uh I had truly achieved the American dream. This was 2003
2:01:21
2 hours, 1 minute, 21 secondsand I feel like I’ve been offered so many great opportunities by this country.
2:01:28
2 hours, 1 minute, 28 secondsAnd when I served, I felt like it was not enough and I want needed to serve more to give back to show how much this
2:01:38
2 hours, 1 minute, 38 secondsplace means to me. I didn’t need to preach it and sell it and and and showcase it from the mountains. I just need to live it.
2:01:47
2 hours, 1 minute, 47 secondsSo now that I’m no longer serving that capacity, they feel like, okay, now I can serve in a different capacity.
2:01:59
2 hours, 1 minute, 59 secondsAnd so that’s where I find myself.
2:02:02
2 hours, 2 minutes, 2 secondsI appreciate you sharing your sentiments that I’ve done certain things in my life, Jake. I’ve received certain awards throughout my life. I’ve received
2:02:11
2 hours, 2 minutes, 11 secondscertain accolades, but they’ve all been buried in boxes my entire career. I’ve never displayed them.
2:02:18
2 hours, 2 minutes, 18 secondsYeah.
2:02:21
2 hours, 2 minutes, 21 secondsMy life isn’t lived through accolades or awards or certificates.
2:02:27
2 hours, 2 minutes, 27 secondsGuess it’s always been measured in where I’m supposed to be and what I’m supposed to do.
2:02:34
2 hours, 2 minutes, 34 secondsSo for me, I don’t know if it’ll ever be enough.
2:02:40
2 hours, 2 minutes, 40 secondsI’m hoping I can get there someday, but I’m not there yet.
2:02:48
2 hours, 2 minutes, 48 secondsNo, that’s okay.
2:02:53
2 hours, 2 minutes, 53 secondsI do want with your permission to explore slightly cuz maybe it will help you. Sure.
2:03:01
2 hours, 3 minutes, 1 secondWhat’s the worst thing that could happen if you’re not enough?
2:03:09
2 hours, 3 minutes, 9 secondsOh, absolutely nothing. I get a chance to be at home more. [laughter] I get a chance to spend time with my families. I get a chance to finish plenty of
2:03:18
2 hours, 3 minutes, 18 secondsprojects that I have in terms of old cars and and and in and classic cars.
2:03:22
2 hours, 3 minutes, 22 secondsI’ve got so many cars that are undone. I get a chance to finish them. I get a chance to be at home. That’s the worst thing that happens.
2:03:29
2 hours, 3 minutes, 29 secondsI think it’s it’s at least worth understanding that and that there’s nothing to fear and you’ve
2:03:37
2 hours, 3 minutes, 37 secondsalready helped so many people as far as doing even more than enough in a sense.
2:03:48
2 hours, 3 minutes, 48 secondsI want to come back to your initial thought about am I going to be talking about the right topics?
2:03:55
2 hours, 3 minutes, 55 secondsCan I do this?
2:03:58
2 hours, 3 minutes, 58 secondsWhat’s a more powerful thought than that? Typically the opposite of that statement.
2:04:05
2 hours, 4 minutes, 5 secondsRephrase that question. Ask me again.
2:04:08
2 hours, 4 minutes, 8 secondsSure. Basically want to dial in your first thought that you’re wanting help with. Okay.
2:04:15
2 hours, 4 minutes, 15 secondsAm I talking about the right topics?
2:04:19
2 hours, 4 minutes, 19 secondsCan I communicate this? Well, be the right person for this those thoughts.
2:04:24
2 hours, 4 minutes, 24 secondsOkay. Is it was one of those bothering you or holding you back more? Do you think it’s interesting that you entered this
2:04:33
2 hours, 4 minutes, 33 secondsvisible room that we switched on to for you to coach and
2:04:41
2 hours, 4 minutes, 41 secondsduring that you got to a [clears throat] place that I hadn’t expected to go to.
2:04:48
2 hours, 4 minutes, 48 secondsPretty good. Well done, my friend.
2:04:50
2 hours, 4 minutes, 50 secondsBecause normally, you know, that’s my job. So, I’d like to think that I’ve taught you well.
2:04:55
2 hours, 4 minutes, 55 seconds[laughter]
2:04:57
2 hours, 4 minutes, 57 secondsThere’s still some more you could teach me. So, in all fairness, um maybe that is a
2:05:04
2 hours, 5 minutes, 4 secondsdistraction because I know I can be really good at sharing
2:05:12
2 hours, 5 minutes, 12 secondsthose messages of resilience and the writings and I can assess and evaluate and and analyze behaviors in a way that
2:05:21
2 hours, 5 minutes, 21 secondsmaybe Other people’s aren’t people are not able to. Yes, of course.
2:05:28
2 hours, 5 minutes, 28 seconds[laughter] It’s absolutely fact. It’s not just a perspective.
2:05:34
2 hours, 5 minutes, 34 secondsSo when you think that right that thought right now of I can absolutely do this which is true.
2:05:41
2 hours, 5 minutes, 41 secondsWhat emotions come up? Oh man. Joy, kindness.
2:05:49
2 hours, 5 minutes, 49 secondsJoy, kindness. What else? um encouragement and a certain level of solace to think that yeah, I’m ready.
2:05:57
2 hours, 5 minutes, 57 secondsThis is what I’m supposed to be doing, you know. But um I guess with that caveat is also
2:06:07
2 hours, 6 minutes, 7 secondswe talked about what does success look like and uh what if it works out? [snorts] What if it doesn’t work out? Mhm.
2:06:17
2 hours, 6 minutes, 17 secondsWhat the but then we have an innate ability often times those have who have suffered and gone
2:06:25
2 hours, 6 minutes, 25 secondsthrough some difficult times. We have an innate ability to self-sabotage. Mhm. That’s what you do.
2:06:32
2 hours, 6 minutes, 32 secondsWe all do that to an extent.
2:06:34
2 hours, 6 minutes, 34 secondsI’m just making a statement. [laughter] Could be false. Are you looking in the mirror now? No. Just kidding.
2:06:39
2 hours, 6 minutes, 39 secondsI just don’t know. I just don’t know if it’s true. Right.
2:06:42
2 hours, 6 minutes, 42 secondsOf course. Of course. I mean, we we all do that. So, yeah.
2:06:45
2 hours, 6 minutes, 45 secondsyou know, every measure of of of success we look at and think, okay, what if it works out? So, we
2:06:52
2 hours, 6 minutes, 52 secondsensure that maybe if I self-sabotage it because I can control [snorts] that part.
2:06:57
2 hours, 6 minutes, 57 secondsI can control the uncertainty and the fear. I create the chaos. Yeah. But you don’t have to. No.
2:07:06
2 hours, 7 minutes, 6 secondsFrom that mindset of joy and empowerment.
2:07:10
2 hours, 7 minutes, 10 secondsYeah. Because from my from my perspective, it’s just such a blessing to be
2:07:18
2 hours, 7 minutes, 18 secondsin your presence and to and to see what you’re capable of. And it’s it’s it’s
2:07:26
2 hours, 7 minutes, 26 secondsjust I I can’t put into words how how truly truly remarkable it is. And uh and this this moment, this conversation is I
2:07:35
2 hours, 7 minutes, 35 secondsI will never forget. And it’s truly a blessing.
2:07:40
2 hours, 7 minutes, 40 secondsFrom that from that state, what action do you want to take?
2:07:51
2 hours, 7 minutes, 51 secondsI think having this conversation audibly that I’ve had with myself in so
2:07:59
2 hours, 7 minutes, 59 secondsmany ways in silence is brought to a place I had never intended it to be brought to.
2:08:08
2 hours, 8 minutes, 8 secondsand never intended it to be shared.
2:08:12
2 hours, 8 minutes, 12 secondsNever intended it to be brought to you and your audience.
2:08:17
2 hours, 8 minutes, 17 secondsMy plan and hope was first conversation get a chance to talk about the books.
2:08:23
2 hours, 8 minutes, 23 secondsWe’ll get a chance to talk about different topics and not about me and for us you have gotten here.
2:08:35
2 hours, 8 minutes, 35 secondsI guess my hope is that uh you or your audience
2:08:41
2 hours, 8 minutes, 41 secondsrecognize that uh no matter how successful one person is perceived
2:08:49
2 hours, 8 minutes, 49 secondsto be, there’s always going to be some measure of failure. We are our own worst.
2:09:00
2 hours, 9 minutesWe are our own worst stewards of that silence.
2:09:05
2 hours, 9 minutes, 5 secondsof that peace and we hold ourselves hostage for the sake of healing.
2:09:12
2 hours, 9 minutes, 12 secondsAnd there’s a lot more individuals that are out there or like me who have suffered in their own I won’t say that
2:09:20
2 hours, 9 minutes, 20 secondsI’ve suffered greater because again it’s not a comparison or a contest. They’ve suffered in their own ways much deeper.
2:09:28
2 hours, 9 minutes, 28 secondsMhm.
2:09:28
2 hours, 9 minutes, 28 secondsAnd I hope that they see that uh if there’s anybody that understands, it’s somebody like you or somebody like me.
2:09:38
2 hours, 9 minutes, 38 secondsWell, I hope that you’re coming here and us talking that you at least can feel that in every way
2:09:48
2 hours, 9 minutes, 48 secondspossible, I’m trying to make you feel understood.
2:09:53
2 hours, 9 minutes, 53 secondsThank you, Jake. This is uh I got to say it’s not too many places we live in life cuz I’ve allowed others to feel understood.
2:10:02
2 hours, 10 minutes, 2 secondsThere’s not too many places in my life that I exist where I allow others to make me feel this way.
2:10:07
2 hours, 10 minutes, 7 secondsWell, I’m glad you exist and you’re in my life at this moment.
2:10:16
2 hours, 10 minutes, 16 secondsI appreciate that. That means the world to me. It really does. It’s very kind.
2:10:20
2 hours, 10 minutes, 20 secondsYeah. and what you’ve done, at least for me, is more than enough.
2:10:26
2 hours, 10 minutes, 26 seconds[clears throat]
2:10:27
2 hours, 10 minutes, 27 secondsAnd you’ve done more than that by coming here and and being vulnerable and giving me insight. So, thank you.
2:10:40
2 hours, 10 minutes, 40 secondsIt’s pretty incredible. It’s incredible what you’ve established and what you’ve been able to do. So, I’m in awe of what you have been able to do in your service
2:10:49
2 hours, 10 minutes, 49 secondsand I’m glad that uh some of our close friends allowed us to connect and those close friends trusted me
2:10:59
2 hours, 10 minutes, 59 secondsenough to recognize that I can be present with you in the way that we needed to. So, thank
2:11:07
2 hours, 11 minutes, 7 secondsyou for setting this platform up in a way that somebody like me could be here.
2:11:14
2 hours, 11 minutes, 14 secondsAmen. Um, you’re more than welcome. And, uh, any accomplishment that I have achieved, it’s
2:11:23
2 hours, 11 minutes, 23 secondsall in God’s name. So, all praise and glory to him, not me. So, give it give it to him.
2:11:30
2 hours, 11 minutes, 30 secondsAs far as the uncertainty goes, you were at a seven or eight before. Where do you feel you’re at now? You haven’t made any progress. No problem. Just curious.
2:11:41
2 hours, 11 minutes, 41 secondsInterestingly enough, um I hadn’t planned on moving up on that scale a whole lot.
2:11:50
2 hours, 11 minutes, 50 secondsI hadn’t planned on having this conversation, but I can’t take it back. [laughter] So,
2:11:58
2 hours, 11 minutes, 58 secondsother than, you know, I delete this conversation some way, which again, I’m just kidding. I’m out if you like. I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding.
2:12:06
2 hours, 12 minutes, 6 seconds[laughter] Power to power of social media.
2:12:10
2 hours, 12 minutes, 10 secondsUm, I would say I’m definitely at a a lot closer to that place I needed to be.
2:12:20
2 hours, 12 minutes, 20 secondsDefinitely closer to eight or nine than where I had intended to be.
2:12:25
2 hours, 12 minutes, 25 secondsAnd Jake, I don’t I don’t know where life is going to take either of us, but that’s the beauty of it.
2:12:31
2 hours, 12 minutes, 31 secondsWe exist and we move through in the hopes that we’re present for those that need us. And I’m thankful that I was able to take this journey out here.
2:12:42
2 hours, 12 minutes, 42 secondsI had no idea two weeks ago, three weeks ago that this is where I would be sitting. I had no idea that this conversation would be happening.
2:12:50
2 hours, 12 minutes, 50 seconds[clears throat]
2:12:51
2 hours, 12 minutes, 51 secondsBut I’m honored by it and I’m thankful that I had it. I’m thankful that I had it with you because who knows what this
2:12:59
2 hours, 12 minutes, 59 secondscould have turned in to with the wrong person. Maybe somebody else would have exploited it. Maybe somebody else would have sensationalized it. M
2:13:07
2 hours, 13 minutes, 7 secondsbut you handled it with such kindness and empathy and almost a level of compassion that I’m
2:13:16
2 hours, 13 minutes, 16 secondsnot used to. So thank you. I appreciate that.
2:13:18
2 hours, 13 minutes, 18 secondsWell, I appreciate that. My whole purpose in life is to be in love and share love with others. So even from just meeting you today, I hope you can
2:13:28
2 hours, 13 minutes, 28 secondsunderstand my intention always to be warm and welcoming. And so I’m glad you’re here and are able to open up and share your story before I have a couple
2:13:37
2 hours, 13 minutes, 37 secondsmore questions. One’s from Hank I have to ask.
2:13:39
2 hours, 13 minutes, 39 secondsOh boy. [laughter] It’s a good I think it’s a good one. You might know you might know what it’s going to be.
2:13:46
2 hours, 13 minutes, 46 secondsI’m just also curious because it helps wrap up a coaching session which by you know in 20 minutes we can do a lot. If I can dive into people helping people in
2:13:55
2 hours, 13 minutes, 55 secondstwo hours we can have an even more unforgettable conversation. But what I’m just curious, what have you
2:14:02
2 hours, 14 minutes, 2 secondslearned about yourself in this short coaching session that it’s okay to share a version of
2:14:10
2 hours, 14 minutes, 10 secondsmyself that I was afraid to for the fear of judgment, for the fear of of being perceived as being weak or not capable.
2:14:20
2 hours, 14 minutes, 20 secondsAnd it’s okay to share a version of myself that I’ve been afraid to share or hide or I’ve been hiding for quite a long time.
2:14:30
2 hours, 14 minutes, 30 secondsThat’s beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. Okay, Hank’s question real quick because I know he’ll watch this, right? [laughter]
2:14:37
2 hours, 14 minutes, 37 secondsUm, do you believe that love should be earned?
2:14:45
2 hours, 14 minutes, 45 secondsOh my goodness. Or deserved. Oh my goodness.
Chapter 27: Is love earned or deserved?
2:14:50
2 hours, 14 minutes, 50 secondsOf all the people. [laughter] Oh,
2:14:54
2 hours, 14 minutes, 54 seconds[gasps and sighs]
2:14:55
2 hours, 14 minutes, 55 secondsRyan and Hans and Hank. Oh my goodness. It’s like a rivalry argument I’ve heard.
2:15:02
2 hours, 15 minutes, 2 secondsAnd they know I’ve already proved them wrong multiple times over. So, okay.
2:15:07
2 hours, 15 minutes, 7 secondsSo, Jake, [laughter] the question on the table is, do you believe love is earned or deserved?
2:15:18
2 hours, 15 minutes, 18 secondsCorrect.
2:15:19
2 hours, 15 minutes, 19 secondsWhat do you believe? I’m curious because I’ll share my answer with you.
2:15:29
2 hours, 15 minutes, 29 secondsI think there’s some nuance to it. I guess if I think of it as I think of like as a
2:15:39
2 hours, 15 minutes, 39 secondsthere’s different ways I think of like a a close relationship and then I also think of
2:15:46
2 hours, 15 minutes, 46 secondsmost importantly to me in Jesus eyes to where people should just deserve love I think
2:15:55
2 hours, 15 minutes, 55 secondsin that sense. Okay, that’s how I that’s how I think of it. Okay.
2:15:57
2 hours, 15 minutes, 57 secondsLike you can have love from him. Now, in a close relationship,
2:16:04
2 hours, 16 minutes, 4 secondsas far as love goes or anything when it comes to a a relationship, say someone I’m dating, right?
2:16:12
2 hours, 16 minutes, 12 secondsMhm.
2:16:13
2 hours, 16 minutes, 13 secondsI think a level of vulner vulnerability and the level that relationship is going to get to is also dependent upon effort.
2:16:25
2 hours, 16 minutes, 25 secondsOkay. So if I’m being very open, putting a lot of effort in, being vulnerable,
2:16:34
2 hours, 16 minutes, 34 secondsthat is more deserving of that being reciprocated versus I don’t think I deserve a great
2:16:42
2 hours, 16 minutes, 42 secondsrelationship if I’m not putting in effort.
2:16:45
2 hours, 16 minutes, 45 secondsOkay? As far as also the other person, if someone’s not really putting in much effort, I don’t think that person should necessarily deserve the 100% version of me.
2:16:56
2 hours, 16 minutes, 56 secondsOkay. Hope that gives it some context.
2:16:59
2 hours, 16 minutes, 59 secondsSo, that’s good. Uh, typical that you would take the balanced approach, a little bit of everything, right? So, answering the question without really
2:17:07
2 hours, 17 minutes, 7 secondscommitting to anyone’s side, that’s fantastic. Nicely done, my friend. Nicely done. I have no I [laughter] have no trouble.
2:17:12
2 hours, 17 minutes, 12 secondsI have no trouble with committing, but that’s just how I’m thinking about it.
2:17:15
2 hours, 17 minutes, 15 secondsIs that what your past relationship? I’m just kidding. We won’t dive into that.
2:17:19
2 hours, 17 minutes, 19 secondsI was committed, [laughter] they were not.
2:17:23
2 hours, 17 minutes, 23 secondsOr maybe they were committed, but they just were not committed in the way that they felt they needed to. And that’s okay. Possibly. Yeah, of course.
2:17:29
2 hours, 17 minutes, 29 secondsSo, it’s interesting and and it’s incredible that he wants me go in this session to be able to go into this.
2:17:37
2 hours, 17 minutes, 37 seconds[snorts] And thank you, Hans, Hank, and Ryan, which I can’t wait to share this with them.
2:17:43
2 hours, 17 minutes, 43 secondsSo, as soon as we start placing any type of I deserve, I I’m doing this in hopes of being loved.
2:17:52
2 hours, 17 minutes, 52 secondsI am doing this because you I’ve earned it.
2:17:58
2 hours, 17 minutes, 58 secondsWe’re placing expectations. We are placing expectations on on other individuals. And my ideal has always been
2:18:06
2 hours, 18 minutes, 6 secondsin life, we don’t really deserve anything.
2:18:10
2 hours, 18 minutes, 10 secondsYou can earn a paycheck because you show up. Mhm.
2:18:13
2 hours, 18 minutes, 13 secondsAnd you do the job and some people show up and they may not be effectively able to do the job and they still get paid, right?
2:18:21
2 hours, 18 minutes, 21 secondsSo there’s an ex sense of expectation when you earn something.
2:18:25
2 hours, 18 minutes, 25 secondsYeah. When you have this sense of deserve, you’ve almost built a sense of entitlement that I deserve this because I did X, Y, and Z.
2:18:34
2 hours, 18 minutes, 34 secondsAnd my perspective to that is it’s neither earned or deserved. Love isn’t something that I can force anybody to
2:18:41
2 hours, 18 minutes, 41 secondsgive. Love is something that somebody chooses to offer to you.
2:18:49
2 hours, 18 minutes, 49 secondsBut when it comes to love in the form in in the sense of the question was posed.
2:18:56
2 hours, 18 minutes, 56 secondsIf I build any expectations of any sense of idealism that I deserve something
2:19:02
2 hours, 19 minutes, 2 secondsthen the mere facet of love gets lost because we can’t earn it. We don’t deserve it. I can do all the incredible
2:19:11
2 hours, 19 minutes, 11 secondsthings for you. Mhm.
2:19:13
2 hours, 19 minutes, 13 secondsI can show up for people. I can sacrifice. I can do all those things.
2:19:18
2 hours, 19 minutes, 18 secondsBut I still can’t force somebody to love me the way that I may want to. They can love me the way they choose to love me.
2:19:27
2 hours, 19 minutes, 27 secondsYeah.
2:19:28
2 hours, 19 minutes, 28 secondsSo love isn’t obligatory. Love is an obligation.
2:19:34
2 hours, 19 minutes, 34 secondsLove is a process and mechanism for showing up for people in their best of times and their worst of times. Mhm.
2:19:43
2 hours, 19 minutes, 43 secondsLove is doing things for other people because you want to, not because you expect something in return.
2:19:50
2 hours, 19 minutes, 50 secondsMhm. [clears throat] Other people think, well, I am doing something in return.
2:19:59
2 hours, 19 minutes, 59 secondsLet me know how far your works take you.
2:20:02
2 hours, 20 minutes, 2 secondsBut as soon as we deplete that mindset that it’s earned or deserved and we just exist, that we do things for people, we
2:20:11
2 hours, 20 minutes, 11 secondsdo things for those that we love, those who we care about, those that show up for us, whether it’s a spouse, a a child.
2:20:19
2 hours, 20 minutes, 19 secondsHow many relationships have we known where, you know, it’s been said, well, you’re, you know, you’re supposed to love your mother and father because the Bible said so. Mhm.
2:20:30
2 hours, 20 minutes, 30 secondsAnd yet there are absentee parents that have been horrible to their own children.
2:20:35
2 hours, 20 minutes, 35 secondsIs love an obligation? Is love a condition or is love simply given because that’s something an individual chooses to do?
2:20:46
2 hours, 20 minutes, 46 secondsSo for me, my friend, love can neither be earned or deserve or deserved. It’s not my perspective that
2:20:53
2 hours, 20 minutes, 53 secondsmatters. It’s the person that I’m loving. I can love somebody unconditionally. Mhm.
2:20:58
2 hours, 20 minutes, 58 secondsI can show up for them and love them unconditionally. Yeah.
2:21:02
2 hours, 21 minutes, 2 secondsBut I can’t force somebody to love me back.
2:21:04
2 hours, 21 minutes, 4 secondsYeah. Yeah. I agree. I think it’s in looking at the question itself. It’s
2:21:13
2 hours, 21 minutes, 13 secondsalmost like one of those questions like possibly just asking the wrong question even comparing the two, right? To where
2:21:20
2 hours, 21 minutes, 20 secondsyeah, you obviously want someone to to you can’t make someone love you no matter what. I think you can create the conditions.
2:21:26
2 hours, 21 minutes, 26 secondsCorrect. you know, I can do I can do everything in my sense of um giving love
2:21:33
2 hours, 21 minutes, 33 secondsto you and and that comes also too with I need to know what your expectations are and also knowing what your needs are.
2:21:43
2 hours, 21 minutes, 43 secondsSome people aren’t even aware of their own needs of course and so it becomes a very complex thing.
2:21:48
2 hours, 21 minutes, 48 secondsIt’s not just like a lot of things in life when it comes to love, relationships, [snorts] they’re a little complicated. Of [laughter] course. Of course.
2:21:58
2 hours, 21 minutes, 58 secondsOf course.
2:21:59
2 hours, 21 minutes, 59 secondsBut you also speak from experience where Jake, I’m sure you’ve created all the right conditions to love somebody.
2:22:07
2 hours, 22 minutes, 7 secondsMhm.
2:22:09
2 hours, 22 minutes, 9 secondsAnd when you didn’t feel that love in return from somebody, blend yourself or felt inadequate. Maybe you felt that you didn’t create the
2:22:17
2 hours, 22 minutes, 17 secondsright environment and no matter what you did, it was never going to be good enough for the other person. Mhm.
2:22:23
2 hours, 22 minutes, 23 secondsNow you were creating that environment. You were creating that outcome of being
2:22:33
2 hours, 22 minutes, 33 secondsreciprocated and love because the way you show love to other people.
2:22:38
2 hours, 22 minutes, 38 secondsBut if you just created that environment and loved somebody just for who they are and it wasn’t reciprocated and you go, I don’t expect anything from you.
2:22:47
2 hours, 22 minutes, 47 secondsMhm. You choose to love me. I’m here. Yeah. You choose not to love me. It’s okay.
2:22:52
2 hours, 22 minutes, 52 secondsYeah, it helps us navigate grief a lot easier.
2:22:58
2 hours, 22 minutes, 58 secondsYeah, of course. And something that I have adopted is just different types of rules for our
2:23:05
2 hours, 23 minutes, 5 secondsvalues we could have and certain types of away rules. So like with rejection, setting the conditions to where
2:23:14
2 hours, 23 minutes, 14 secondsI don’t believe in this idea that someone can necessarily reject me. Okay.
2:23:21
2 hours, 23 minutes, 21 secondsRight. When instead of realizing that it’s most likely God protecting me or
2:23:32
2 hours, 23 minutes, 32 secondstiming or me and in a personal relationship these this other person aren’t aligned, right? And there’s nothing wrong with that.
2:23:40
2 hours, 23 minutes, 40 secondsYeah. There isn’t. You’re right. You know, it just is. That’s it. And sometimes we want answers. We want closures. We want closure.
2:23:51
2 hours, 23 minutes, 51 secondsUnfortunately, in situations where we’ll never receive closure, we want that last conversation in moments where that last conversation will never come.
2:23:58
2 hours, 23 minutes, 58 seconds[clears throat]
2:23:59
2 hours, 23 minutes, 59 secondsWe just want something tangible, something real that we can say, “It wasn’t me. It wasn’t you. [snorts] It just is.” Yeah.
2:24:08
2 hours, 24 minutes, 8 secondsAnd that’s the hardest thing for people because we may not ever get that closure. But how do you live with the unknown? We grieve it.
2:24:16
2 hours, 24 minutes, 16 secondsYeah. We have to be able to grieve it and let it go to say, “Okay, I may never know, but I did the best that I could.” Yeah. And that’s enough.
2:24:26
2 hours, 24 minutes, 26 secondsThat’s enough.
2:24:27
2 hours, 24 minutes, 27 secondsEspecially when it came to a lot of those things you’ve done in the FBI where there was no closure. You still did the best you could.
2:24:35
2 hours, 24 minutes, 35 secondsMhm. I did.
2:24:38
2 hours, 24 minutes, 38 secondsAnd I did. And uh I did the best that I could and and some. But uh for others it was never enough.
2:24:47
2 hours, 24 minutes, 47 secondsYeah, that’s okay. It is okay.
2:24:51
2 hours, 24 minutes, 51 secondsCouple last closing questions I like to ask.
2:24:57
2 hours, 24 minutes, 57 secondsIf you had a chance to go back talk to your nine-year-old self, what would you say to him?
2:25:08
2 hours, 25 minutes, 8 secondsWow.
2:25:10
2 hours, 25 minutes, 10 secondsSo, just to create a little context, yeah, my 9-year-old self was living in
2:25:18
2 hours, 25 minutes, 18 secondswhat I would barely call a shack of a house in Northern California in the little town of Yuba City.
2:25:25
2 hours, 25 minutes, 25 secondsI’d just begun to understand and recognize what electricity and power and indoor plumbing was and
2:25:33
2 hours, 25 minutes, 33 secondsand working in the fields as a migrant worker with the rest of my family even at the age of nine
2:25:42
2 hours, 25 minutes, 42 secondsand some of the other challenges that went along with it on a very deep personal level.
2:25:49
2 hours, 25 minutes, 49 secondsIf I can go back and tell myself that it would be that It’s going to be okay.
2:25:58
2 hours, 25 minutes, 58 secondsYou’ll have your ups and downs. You have your challenges. And life will get complicated. And there’s times that you’re going to want to run away from it all. But it’s okay. Just breathe.
2:26:11
2 hours, 26 minutes, 11 secondsNo need to be shameful or embarrassed of yourself, a family,
2:26:20
2 hours, 26 minutes, 20 secondsbut don’t be afraid to stand up and fight for yourself. Don’t be afraid to make the hard decisions, but just breathe.
2:26:33
2 hours, 26 minutes, 33 secondsEnjoy those moments where joy comes. Enjoy those moments where
Chapter 28: Advice to his 9-year-old self
2:26:41
2 hours, 26 minutes, 41 secondsyou have the world in the palm of your hand because just as quickly as you got it, you’ll lose it.
2:26:49
2 hours, 26 minutes, 49 secondsIt’s great advice.
2:26:51
2 hours, 26 minutes, 51 secondsOur closing question, what’s the one thing you’ve done that has made the biggest difference in your life?
2:27:04
2 hours, 27 minutes, 4 secondsI know earlier I shared with you that uh talking about the lesson about um
2:27:11
2 hours, 27 minutes, 11 secondsmy mortality in my life the the
2:27:19
2 hours, 27 minutes, 19 secondsone of the biggest decisions I’ve made the most difference in my life.
2:27:25
2 hours, 27 minutes, 25 secondsSo when I was 15 years old and almost 16 the summer, I was, by the way, going to be a freshman. I was on the older side
2:27:33
2 hours, 27 minutes, 33 secondsbecause when I came to the US, I was eight and they put me in kindergarten.
2:27:38
2 hours, 27 minutes, 38 secondsOh wow. So I was an 8-year-old as a kind fit on the barely fit on the square to take Yeah. Yeah. I could tell you a lot of funny stories about that upbringing, but
2:27:47
2 hours, 27 minutes, 47 secondsthat summer right before I started freshman year, I said yes to some friends who took me to church camp.
2:27:54
2 hours, 27 minutes, 54 secondsAnd that’s where I converted from Hinduism to Christianity and started believing in
2:28:02
2 hours, 28 minutes, 2 secondsGod and Jesus and realized that uh all
2:28:09
2 hours, 28 minutes, 9 secondsthe other ideals of what religion is didn’t fit my notion of what Christianity was because to me
2:28:16
2 hours, 28 minutes, 16 secondsChristianity wasn’t a religion. And even at that young age, I realized it when I was when I heard the message for the first time about salvation and about
2:28:24
2 hours, 28 minutes, 24 secondsheaven and hell. I asked the question, is it really that easy? You can just pray. You have direct access to God.
Chapter 29: The decision that made the biggest difference
2:28:34
2 hours, 28 minutes, 34 secondsYeah. Nothing had been so easy.
2:28:38
2 hours, 28 minutes, 38 secondsAnd for me, that was a relationship. And so that was the night I decided, okay.
2:28:44
2 hours, 28 minutes, 44 secondsSince then, I’ve done my best. I’ve faltered at times, but I’ve done my best to to stay within
2:28:52
2 hours, 28 minutes, 52 secondsthe parameters of what my relationship with God looks like. And that I didn’t over complicate it because it’s actually
2:29:00
2 hours, 29 minutesquite simple. We as humans complicate it. We believe that God needs some us to
2:29:08
2 hours, 29 minutes, 8 secondsdo this, needs us to do that, needs us to be something, and he doesn’t need us to do anything.
2:29:15
2 hours, 29 minutes, 15 secondsSo for me that was one of the biggest contributing factors of the trajectory of my life compared to the rest of my
2:29:22
2 hours, 29 minutes, 22 secondssiblings and friends family because um I just felt I had a calling.
2:29:32
2 hours, 29 minutes, 32 secondsWell I’m glad you picked up the call. Thank you.
2:29:35
2 hours, 29 minutes, 35 secondsUh Vinnie, this has been an amazing conversation. Really appreciate you making your trip out here. Two and a half hours, my friend.
2:29:43
2 hours, 29 minutes, 43 secondsFirst podcast. Oh wow. Think it’s a pretty good one.
2:29:46
2 hours, 29 minutes, 46 secondsI I Well, you’ll have to recall it cuz uh it’s already gone out of mine. No, I’m just [laughter] kidding.
2:29:53
2 hours, 29 minutes, 53 secondsWe’ll we’ll get you a copy. You can share.
2:29:57
2 hours, 29 minutes, 57 secondsThanks for tuning in. We’ll see you next podcast.
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